four frames of mindfulness

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confusedlayman
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four frames of mindfulness

Post by confusedlayman » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:44 pm

I am planning to practise four frames of mindfulness from today and at end of seventh year ill hope to be free from suffering. can anyone tell apart from the instruction, we should separate awareness from 5 clinging aggregate?
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
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DooDoot
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:39 am

When mindfulness is properly established, there is no clinging to the aggregates. Therefore, the question about the 'aggregates when clinging' ('upadana-khandha') appears not relevant.
Anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.

And he dwells independent, not clinging to anything in the world.

MN 10 Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta
Satipaṭṭhāna is not apart from the aggregates. Breathing/body is an aggregate, feeling is an aggregate, citta is an aggregate, objects of consciousness (even when they are impermanent) are aggregates. Satipaṭṭhāna is awareness of the aggregates but remembering (being mindful) to not cling to the aggregates. For example, craving for jhana is clinging to imaginary aggregates. Satipaṭṭhāna is both experiencing & not-clinging to the present aggregate that has manifested in the present moment in the present consciousness.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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SarathW
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by SarathW » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:01 am

we should separate awareness from 5 clinging aggregate?
The way I understand the four frames of mindfulness means the awareness of the five clinging-aggregates.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:12 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:01 am
The way I understand the four frames of mindfulness means the awareness of the five clinging-aggregates.
The above sounds questionable. While the Satipatthana & other suttas (eg AN 4.41, MN 122) refer to observing principles with respect to the five grasping-aggregates, they do not refer to any grasping while observing. Therefore, I think what these suttas are saying is the five aggregates, which are ordinarily subjects of grasping, are observed in a way so the grasping does not occur & ceases towards them. For example:
There are these five clinging-aggregates where a monk should stay, keeping track of arising & passing away (thus): 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' As he stays keeping track of arising & passing away with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, he abandons any conceit that 'I am' with regard to these five clinging-aggregates. This being the case, he discerns, 'I have abandoned any conceit that "I am" with regard to these five clinging-aggregates.' In this way he is alert there.

MN 122
And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

AN 4.41
And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five grasping aggregates?

Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu?

It’s when a mendicant contemplates:

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu:

‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.

‘iti rūpaṃ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;

Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.

iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;

Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.

iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;

Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.

iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṃ atthaṅgamo;

Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’

iti viññāṇaṃ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti;

If there was clinging with the aggregates during the meditation then obviously the conceit "I am" would not be abandoned and the effluents (asava) would not end. Possibly there is a translation problem here.

:smile:
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pegembara
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by pegembara » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:00 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:44 pm
I am planning to practise four frames of mindfulness from today and at end of seventh year ill hope to be free from suffering. can anyone tell apart from the instruction, we should separate awareness from 5 clinging aggregate?
Not so much to separate "awareness" from aggregates. More to just stop clinging to them.

Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.

Take for example thoughts. If the thoughts are allowed to arise and pass away without clinging -->Noble Silence https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN21_1.html
When this was said, Ven. Udāyin said to Ven. Sāriputta, “But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?”

“Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strands of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye—agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, linked to sensual desire; sounds cognizable via the ear… aromas cognizable via the nose… flavors cognizable via the tongue… tactile sensations cognizable via the body—agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, linked to sensual desire. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure.

Then there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought, that is an affliction for him.…

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_34.html
"Monks, I will teach you the burden, the carrier of the burden, the taking up of the burden, and the casting off of the burden. [1] Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:56 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:44 pm
I am planning to practise four frames of mindfulness from today and at end of seventh year ill hope to be free from suffering. can anyone tell apart from the instruction, we should separate awareness from 5 clinging aggregate?
The approach described in MN10 is basically paying attention to different aspects of experience, and noticing how phenomena arise and cease in dependendence upon conditions. The aim is to reduce clinging to the aggregates. Note that you can apply this method to the sense-bases as well as the aggregates.
https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato
Last edited by Dinsdale on Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dinsdale
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:15 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:01 am
we should separate awareness from 5 clinging aggregate?
The way I understand the four frames of mindfulness means the awareness of the five clinging-aggregates.
"Aggregates subject to clinging" or "Clingable aggregates" works better here than "Clinging aggregates".

Note the distinction in SN12.48, that between aggregates and aggregates subject to clinging.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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DooDoot
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:55 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:01 am
"
The way I understand the four frames of mindfulness means the awareness of the five clinging-aggregates.
I read in the Pali "upadana" is a "present participle" that means "clinging" & cannot mean "clingable" (which is "upādāniya").
And what are the five clinging (upādāna)-aggregates?

"Whatever form — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable (upādāniyaṃ), offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the form clinging-aggregate.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Or the following:
And when you’ve gotten involved with and grasped these five aggregates of grasping, they lead to your lasting harm and suffering.

Tassime pañcupādānakkhandhā upetā upādinnā dīgharattaṃ ahitāya dukkhāya saṃvattanti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.85/en/sujato
Or the following:
They’re attracted to form, grasp it, and commit to the notion that it is ‘my self’.

So rūpaṃ upeti upādiyati adhiṭṭhāti ‘attā me’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.85/en/sujato
Attachments
past-present-participles.png
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sentinel
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:40 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:39 am

citta is an aggregate.
it seems that is not in the texts .
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:47 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:40 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:39 am

citta is an aggregate.
it seems that is not in the texts .
True. In MN10, the core text on satipatthana, the aggregates appear in the fourth frame, as one model for the investigation of phenomena. Along with the sense bases, Four Truths, hindrances and enlightenment factors. Different things to notice, different ways of looking at experience.
So in summary, Satipatthana as described in MN10 seems to encompass the first two factors of enlightenment, ie sati and dhamma-vicayya.
Obviously it's a practice, so it's important not to confuse the method (observing) with the aim of the practice (non-clinging).
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:29 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:40 pm
it seems that is not in the texts .
All conditioned things fall into an aggregate. What I posted is true. Disagreement with what I posted is false.

Mindfulness does not mean "observing". The method of practise is not "observing". Believing the method of practise is "observing" is why there is no progress; after so many years; the only fruit is bitterness, intolerance, impatience, frustration, anger & short-temperedness. The Buddha said:
Dhammapada wrote:155. Those who in youth have not led the holy life, or have failed to acquire wealth, languish like old cranes in the pond without fish.

156. Those who in youth have not lead the holy life, or have failed to acquire wealth, lie sighing over the past, like worn out arrows (shot from) a bow.
Citta is an aggregate; i.e. a subset of sankhara khandha. The following citta qualities are included within aggregates: passion aversion delusion constricted scattered enlarged surpassed unsurpassed concentrated citta released etc. SN 47.42 says citta originates from nama-rupa therefore citta is part of an aggregate.

Each satipatthana is experience of an aggregate or an aggregates. Kaya is aggregates, vedana is aggregate, citta is aggregate; Dhamma is not aggregates according to the True Teachings. Dhamma or Truth of Impermanence, Three Characteristics & Nibbana are not aggregates. The last Satipatthana is not about "aggregates" but about the "impermanence" of aggregates. Even when MN 10 refers to aggregates, it is about the rise & fall of the aggregates rather than about the aggregates themselves. Satipatthana 1, 2 & 3 is about getting to know the aggregates as aggregates. Satipatthana 4 is about seeing their rise & fall.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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confusedlayman
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by confusedlayman » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:47 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:29 pm
sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:40 pm
it seems that is not in the texts .
All conditioned things fall into an aggregate. What I posted is true. Disagreement with what I posted is false.

Mindfulness does not mean "observing". The method of practise is not "observing". Believing the method of practise is "observing" is why there is no progress; after so many years; the only fruit is bitterness, intolerance, impatience, frustration, anger & short-temperedness. The Buddha said:
Dhammapada wrote:155. Those who in youth have not led the holy life, or have failed to acquire wealth, languish like old cranes in the pond without fish.

156. Those who in youth have not lead the holy life, or have failed to acquire wealth, lie sighing over the past, like worn out arrows (shot from) a bow.
Citta is an aggregate; i.e. a subset of sankhara khandha. The following citta qualities are included within aggregates: passion aversion delusion constricted scattered enlarged surpassed unsurpassed concentrated citta released etc. SN 47.42 says citta originates from nama-rupa therefore citta is part of an aggregate.

Each satipatthana is experience of an aggregate or an aggregates. Kaya is aggregates, vedana is aggregate, citta is aggregate; Dhamma is not aggregates according to the True Teachings. Dhamma or Truth of Impermanence, Three Characteristics & Nibbana are not aggregates. The last Satipatthana is not about "aggregates" but about the "impermanence" of aggregates. Even when MN 10 refers to aggregates, it is about the rise & fall of the aggregates rather than about the aggregates themselves. Satipatthana 1, 2 & 3 is about getting to know the aggregates as aggregates. Satipatthana 4 is about seeing their rise & fall.
But isnt aggregates seeing aggregates as impermanent etc?
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

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DooDoot
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:59 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:47 am
But isnt aggregates seeing aggregates as impermanent etc?
Yes but the seeing of the impermanence is what is important in the 4th satipatthana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by sentinel » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:04 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:59 am
Yes but the seeing of the impermanence is what is important in the 4th satipatthana.
Not really , not particular to the 4th , in fact four satipatthana cover the five aggregates , seeing the rising falling in all four categories resulting in seeing anicca anatta and sunnata .
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Re: four frames of mindfulness

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:16 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:04 pm
Not really , not particular to the 4th
In the Anapanasati Sutta, which the Buddha said perfects the four Satipatthana, predominantly seeing impermanence is particular to the 4th (even though breath/body, feelings & citta states will be seen as impermanent in previous satipatthana but impermanence will not be the predominant object in those earlier satipatthana). But if you follow the Satipatthana Sutta, you will always be confused about how & what to practise and particularly be confused about what signifies progress. Teachers as diverse as Bhikkhu Buddhadasa to Bhikkhu Sujato have called the Satipatthana Sutta a 'hoax'. If you are a layperson practising meditation for 30 minutes or 1 hour, each morning & each evening, the Satipatthana Sutta can be useful. But if you aspire for higher practise, best to focus on the Anapanasati Sutta.

It is already self-evident on this topic how the OP is confused about practice because he/she has read "5 clinging aggregate" in the Satipatthana Sutta and now is confused about its meaning and confused about how to practice. It is even worse when the 5 hindrances are read in the Satipatthana Sutta and people think when the five hindrances arise they are practising the 4th satipatthana; even though they are unable to practise the 1st satipatthana.

The Anapanasati Sutta is unconfusing. You predominantly are observant of breathing until rapture arises. Then rapture becomes the predominant meditation object. Then when rapture calms, the secrets of the (thoughtless silent) citta become the predominant meditation object. But this is too difficult to practise for most therefore they focus on the Satipatthana Sutta; imagining they are observing five hindrances & five clinging aggregates rise & pass away (because they do not even have enough concentration to watch breathing for 5 minutes; let alone 1 hour).
confusedlayman wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:44 pm
we should separate awareness from 5 clinging aggregate?
What do you mean above by "separate awareness"? Also, what do you mean when you use the word "awareness"? Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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