seer and object (duality)

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confusedlayman
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seer and object (duality)

Post by confusedlayman »

anger and defilement arise because of duality?

if emptiness is applied, there is no seer, no object. it is as it is at that moment so only in non dual state there is no seer to perform any act depending on object (stimulus) ???
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:24 am if emptiness is applied, there is no seer, no object.
The Pali suttas define 'emptiness' as follows:
Suñña Sutta wrote: Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty.

And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self?

The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore, it appears the seer (eye-consciousness) is empty and the object (the form) is empty. In other words, to view the seer as 'empty of self' and the sense object as 'empty of self' does not necessarily mean there is no seer, no object and no duality.
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:24 am anger and defilement arise because of duality?
Anger and defilement arise for many reasons apart from 'duality'. For example, when Buddhists practise "metta" or "compassion" or "forgiveness" or "empathetic understanding", these practises are "dualistic".

In Theravada Buddhism, it is emphasised all unwholesome states, such as anger, arise due to ignorance, lack of conscience (hiri), lack of fear of consequences of kamma (ottappa) & craving unrealistically, as follows:
Avijja Sutta wrote: The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience (hiri) & lack of concern (ottappa).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:24 am it is as it is at that moment so only in non dual state there is no seer to perform any act depending on object (stimulus) ???
Possibly this topic should be on the Connections to Other Paths forum rather than the Vipassanā / Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvana. My impression is "non-duality" ("advaita") is from Hinduism & Mahayana.
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:05 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:24 am if emptiness is applied, there is no seer, no object.
The Pali suttas define 'emptiness' as follows:
Suñña Sutta wrote: Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty.

And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self?

The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore, it appears the seer (eye-consciousness) is empty and the object (the form) is empty. In other words, to view the seer as 'empty of self' and the sense object as 'empty of self' does not necessarily mean there is no seer, no object and no duality.
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:24 am anger and defilement arise because of duality?
Anger and defilement arise for many reasons apart from 'duality'. For example, when Buddhists practise "metta" or "compassion" or "forgiveness" or "empathetic understanding", these practises are "dualistic".

In Theravada Buddhism, it is emphasised all unwholesome states, such as anger, arise due to ignorance, lack of conscience (hiri), lack of fear of consequences of kamma (ottappa) & craving unrealistically, as follows:
Avijja Sutta wrote: The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience (hiri) & lack of concern (ottappa).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:24 am it is as it is at that moment so only in non dual state there is no seer to perform any act depending on object (stimulus) ???
Possibly this topic should be on the Connections to Other Paths forum rather than the Vipassanā / Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvana. My impression is "non-duality" ("advaita") is from Hinduism & Mahayana.
Hi, I dont know to move topic if you know please move it so it doesnt voilate rules of forum.

Regarding the topic, yes there is defilement because of ignorance. That ignorance is seeing non self as self, impermanent or permanent, emptiness perception as conventional perception? Hence if non dual state where entire existance is one full ocean there are just process after process with no definite object or being. Is that the end? I dont know
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by Spiny Norman »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:24 am anger and defilement arise because of duality?
No, in the suttas they arise because of ignorance and craving.

The suttas describe a number of dyads (dualities) which appear to be functional:
https://suttacentral.net/search?query=Dyad

Of particular relevance here is SN35.92, which describes the dyad of sense-base and sense-object:
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.92/en/bodhi
And also SN12.19, which describes the dyad of body and external name+form:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/bodhi
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:27 am Regarding the topic, yes there is defilement because of ignorance. That ignorance is seeing non self as self, impermanent or permanent, emptiness perception as conventional perception?
In Thervada, anatta & emptiness are essentially defined the same way. The above ideas about "conventional perception" sound like Mahayana.
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:27 amHence if non dual state where entire existance is one full ocean there are just process after process with no definite object or being. Is that the end? I dont know
Sounds like amorality or Kabbalah to me. A non-dual world without good & evil.

Regards. With metta. :smile:
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by pegembara »

quantum.jpg
"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

CORELESS/ESSENCELESS/SELFLESS
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:44 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:27 am Regarding the topic, yes there is defilement because of ignorance. That ignorance is seeing non self as self, impermanent or permanent, emptiness perception as conventional perception?
In Thervada, anatta & emptiness are essentially defined the same way. The above ideas about "conventional perception" sound like Mahayana.
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:27 amHence if non dual state where entire existance is one full ocean there are just process after process with no definite object or being. Is that the end? I dont know
Sounds like amorality or Kabbalah to me. A non-dual world without good & evil.

Regards. With metta. :smile:
What is good and bad in emptiness? Everything is coloring of mind and good or bad are context and situation based. Ofcourse intentional act produce process which cause of many subsequent process but amorality is stupid people perception of emptiness. They cant find being but they still get feelings and awareness locked to that feeling.
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by confusedlayman »

pegembara wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:28 am quantum.jpg

"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

CORELESS/ESSENCELESS/SELFLESS
I read it and understood as follows. See earth from space station (birds eye view) and whatever happens in earth is just arising and passing away of stuffs so u wont be affected. If u r outside beach and watch beach wave go up and down i notice it but wont feel anything like suffering but when u identify with wave then when it goes up u think u (wave) is happy then when wave come down u r disappointed. So if i put birds eye view on life then someone murders me i should just die. Even birds eye or distance view is awareness which is fabricated so it leads to unwarenessbstate which is non favricated (like space wholich dont exist)
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by Spiny Norman »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:35 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:28 am quantum.jpg

"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

CORELESS/ESSENCELESS/SELFLESS
I read it and understood as follows. See earth from space station (birds eye view) and whatever happens in earth is just arising and passing away of stuffs so u wont be affected. If u r outside beach and watch beach wave go up and down i notice it but wont feel anything like suffering but when u identify with wave then when it goes up u think u (wave) is happy then when wave come down u r disappointed. So if i put birds eye view on life then someone murders me i should just die. Even birds eye or distance view is awareness which is fabricated so it leads to unwarenessbstate which is non favricated (like space wholich dont exist)
I like to watch waves from the shore, and there is a sense of detachment - they're just waves, driven by the wind. However when I'm kayaking on the sea my experience of wind and waves is much more personal, they can be literally "in my face", and they can feel exhilarating or threatening, liberating or a battle, whatever.
So IMO its not the duality implied in sense-objects like wind and waves which is the problem, it's the degree of involvement, how they affect us, the extent to which we get drawn into them. How we relate to them.

You might find it interesting to look at MN1, which explores the distinction between directly knowing sense-objects, and self-referential knowing. https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:24 am anger and defilement arise because of duality?
The defilements are defined as passion, aversion and delusion, so anger is a manifestation of aversion.
Passion, aversion and delusion are innate.
Duality appears to you because of being affected by philosophies. Philosophical views are not innate but acquired. If you never heard or read about 'duality' you wouldn't ask that question because duality wouldn't exist for you.
So how could something that is innate arise because of an acquired view like 'duality'?
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:24 am if emptiness is applied, there is no seer, no object. it is as it is at that moment so only in non dual state there is no seer to perform any act depending on object (stimulus) ???
Again ... such thoughts arise only because one has been affected by philosophies.

Emptiness does not exist. The expression 'emptiness' has been used to denote the absence of mental fabrications or imputations or superimpositions. However you seem to be using the expression 'emptiness' as a basis for fabrications.

Vipassana/insight is embedded in the Eightfold Path. Philosophical speculations are not part of the Eightfold Path.


:anjali:
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by pegembara »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:35 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:28 am quantum.jpg

"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

CORELESS/ESSENCELESS/SELFLESS
I read it and understood as follows. See earth from space station (birds eye view) and whatever happens in earth is just arising and passing away of stuffs so u wont be affected. If u r outside beach and watch beach wave go up and down i notice it but wont feel anything like suffering but when u identify with wave then when it goes up u think u (wave) is happy then when wave come down u r disappointed. So if i put birds eye view on life then someone murders me i should just die. Even birds eye or distance view is awareness which is fabricated so it leads to unwarenessbstate which is non favricated (like space wholich dont exist)
Bird's eye or God view is still not it. The observer is not separate from the observed. In the seen only the seen. "You" are not affected because "you" are not in the picture at all. "You" are not "God" looking down from "up there".
One is not going outwards to its consequences, one is not getting lost in papanca (mental proliferation). One is going right in to the very middle, the very essence, and the very heart of the atta, what one takes to be 'me'. From the body into the mind, from the mind into 'the doer', from 'the doer' into 'the knower', one can then see that one is not 'the knower'. It's just causes and conditions. That's all it is, just a process. Then one will understand why the Buddha said that he doesn't teach annihilation. Annihilation means that there is some thing there that existed, which is now destroyed. Nor did he teach eternalism (that there is some thing there that is never destroyed). He taught the Middle Way, namely Dependent Origination.

The process that one has taken to be a self for all these lifetimes is just an empty process. Cause effect, cause effect, cause effect - just a process. "When there is this, this comes into being. With the cessation of that, that ceases." That is the heart of the Buddha's teaching. Everything is subject to that law. If one can see everything as being subject to that law, then one has seen fully into the nature of anatta. Samsara has been mortally wounded; and one will soon make an end of all birth, old age, death and suffering. If, however, there is just a tiny bit left, which one hasn't seen, just a tiny bit - that can keep one stuck in Samsara for aeons. Sabbe-dhamma-anatta'ti. The whole bloody lot!

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Ajah ... ANATTA.htm
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by Spiny Norman »

Is the Bahiya Sutta passage about the experience of "non-duality", the merging of knower and known, or is it describing the cessation of self-view? And what is the practical difference?

In that Bahiya Sutta phrase "In the seen, just the seen", what exactly is "the seen"? Is it a sense-object?
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by pegembara »

Dinsdale wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:03 am Is the Bahiya Sutta passage about the experience of "non-duality", the merging of knower and known, or is it describing the cessation of self-view? And what is the practical difference?

IMO the root problem is the believe that there is a "self" that is experiencing or seeing. Once that "self" disappears what is left is just the seen.

In that Bahiya Sutta phrase "In the seen, just the seen", what exactly is "the seen"? Is it a sense-object?

What else could it be? "in the cognised, just the cognised"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by confusedlayman »

Then acc to bahia sutta, we should not eat and just dye? In process of eating only eating act is there. Eating act is to continue the aggregates so if aggregares are disease why continue its action?
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Re: seer and object (duality)

Post by pegembara »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:28 pm Then acc to bahia sutta, we should not eat and just dye? In process of eating only eating act is there. Eating act is to continue the aggregates so if aggregares are disease why continue its action?
You are getting it wrong. Aggregates are not the problem. You mistakenly taking them to be you or yours IS the problem.
What is wrong with eating when hungry or drinking when thirsty? :shrug:
Suicidal acts aren't Buddhist if they are rooted in the delusion that "you" are suffering.
Without the "you" there is no mental suffering- only physical discomfort/pain.
Acc to Bahiya sutta, death is an event. No one dies! As the lamp goes out without the fuel/supporting conditions.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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