The way I analysed Sankhara.

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
SarathW
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The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 am

Recently I was away from Dhamma Wheel for a few weeks and had the opportunity to contemplate on Dhamma. This analyisis cannot be supported by any particular Sutta however may be in line with Cula Vedalla Sutta. Please free to comment or add your thoughts.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

There are three main types of Sankhara. (verbal, bodily and mental) It is important to understand the relationship in these three types of Sankhara as they are directly linked to meditative attainments and Nibbana. Please note according to Dependent Origination Sankhara Nirodha (cessation) means Nibbana. These three types of Sankara are ceased gradually.

Verbal.

There are many verbal Sankahara varied from most gross to most subtle.
- The grossest form of verbal Sankhara is the breaking of the fourth precept. This includes lying, harsh speech etc.
- The wholesome speeches like giving a Dhamma talk
- Nither wholesome nor unwholesome speeches required to our day to day activities
- Vitakka Vicara in gross form. (thinking and evaluation)
- wholesome Vitakka and Vicara. (ie first Jhana)
- Vitakka and Vicara in more subtle form like a newly born child. This is the most subtle verbal Sankhara.
- Vitakka and Vicara stop in second Jhana. this is the end of verbal Sankhara


Bodily
There are many Bodily Sankahara varied from most gross to most subtle.

- The grossest form of verbal Sankhara is the breaking of the first three precepts.
- Other bodily expressions. :jumping: :shrug: :cry: :rolleye: :twothumbsup: etc
- Wholesome bodily actions like Dana or giving
- Walking, sitting lying neutral bodily actions
- Breath is the most subtle bodily Sankhara
- Breath stop at fourth Jhana This is the end of Bodily Sankhara

Mental Sankhara
There are many mental Sankahara varied from most gross to most subtle.
There are two main types of mental Sankhara. Citta Sankhara (perception and feeling) and Mano Sankhara (other 50 Cetacika as per Abhidhamma)
Please refer to the following link for further details.

http://103.242.110.22/theravadins/Engli ... actice.pdf

- Unmindfulness result from taking alcohol is the grossest mental Sankhara
- Unwholesome thoughts
- Wholesome thoughts (beautiful thoughts)
- Perception and feeling is the most subtle mental Sankhara
- Perception and feelings stop at Nirodha Samapatthi. This is the end of mental Sankhara ie: Nibbana

Now compare this analysis to the Satipathana Sutta and see how this related to Nibbana. Please also note how Sila (vertues) play a major part in meditation.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:55 pm

Surprisingly there is no single feedback or comment from this vibrant Buddhist community!!
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:32 pm

SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 am
Please note according to Dependent Origination Sankhara Nirodha (cessation) means Nibbana. These three types of Sankara are ceased gradually.
The above appears to say an Arahant has no breathing, no thinking, no perception & no feeling; which sounds wrong. The suttas say Arahants feel & perceive (Iti 44) and say Nibbana is the "calming" of all sankhara ("sabbasaṅkhārasamatho"; MN 26). The suttas also say the Buddha The Arahant practised Anapanasati, therefore had kaya sankhara.
SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 am
Perception and feelings stop at Nirodha Samapatthi. This is the end of mental Sankhara ie: Nibbana
The above also sounds wrong. Nirodha Samapatthi is obviously not Nibbana. There is one suttas that say the defilements can still arise after Non-Returner attainment of Nirodha Samapatthi.
SarathW wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:55 pm
There are three main types of Sankhara.
My view is there is six types of Sankhara, i.e., the two groupings of kaya-vaci-citta-sankhara and kaya-citta-mano-sankhara refer to two different things.
SarathW wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:55 pm
Surprisingly there is no single feedback or comment from this vibrant Buddhist community!!
I provided feedback to the moderator to change the topic title from "analised" to "analysed". "Analised" sounds like "shitting" on the sankharas. Since your analysis appears to be wrong, probably the original topic title should have remained as it was. ;)
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:45 pm

analysed
examine (something) methodically and in detail, typically in order to explain and interpret it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=analyse ... e&ie=UTF-8
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:46 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:45 pm
analysed
I reported your post and the moderator changed the spelling.
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Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:48 pm

OK thanks.
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:51 pm

:jumping:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:25 am

There is one suttas that say the defilements can still arise after Non-Returner attainment of Nirodha Samapatthi.
Could you give me the Sutta reference?
Meanwhile past discussion on this matter.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18101
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:25 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:25 am
Could you give me the Sutta reference?
I would if i could but it exists.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:12 pm

I would if i could but it exists.
Sorry. I will not accept this sort of answer from a learned man like you.

:tongue:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:20 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:12 pm
Sorry. I will not accept this sort of answer from a learned man like you.
:spy:
There Venerable Sāriputta addressed the mendicants: Reverends, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. That is possible.

If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, then, surpassing the company of gods that consume solid food, they’re reborn in a certain host of mind-made gods. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.

No ce diṭṭheva dhamme aññaṃ ārādheyya, atikkammeva kabaḷīkārāhārabhakkhānaṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ aññataraṃ manomayaṃ kāyaṃ upapanno saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ samāpajjeyyāpi vuṭṭhaheyyāpi—

That is possible.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.166/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:39 pm

Thank you, DD This solves the puzzle I had when I wrote my post!
Full Sankhara Nirodha can happen only by Avijja Nirodha.
ie: Avijja Nirodha leads to Sankahara Nirodha as per reverse Dependent Origination.
Hence Samath meditation alone is not enough for the liberation.
Vipassana is the key.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:22 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:39 pm
Thank you, DD This solves the puzzle I had when I wrote my post!
Full Sankhara Nirodha can happen only by Avijja Nirodha.
ie: Avijja Nirodha leads to Sankahara Nirodha as per reverse Dependent Origination.
It appears unlikely your wrong views are solved but remain befuddled & puzzled. The meaning of "nirodha" in "sankhara nirodha" vs "saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ " appears not same.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:42 am

OK.
Then what is Sankhara Nirodha?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:42 am
Then what is Sankhara Nirodha?
It appears to be the ending of sankhara that are polluted by or arose due to ignorance. If this was not so then an Arahant would not be able to think & speak. I already posted the definition of Nibbana includes the "calming" ("samatho") of all sankhara (rather than the destruction of sankhara).

For example, (the probably late Abhidhamma sutta) SN 12.51 says the only sankhara that end are meritorious volitional formation, demeritorious volitional formation & imperturbable volitional formation.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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