SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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SarathW
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SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:05 pm

SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?
“Reverend, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. But it didn’t occur to me: ‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”
My question is whether this Sutta is in contradiction with another teaching.
What I can recall is, Jhana mastery is that you enter the absorption and emerging from at your wish and you are fully aware of it.
Then he went on to say that he has attained these Jhanas.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:37 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:05 pm
What I can recall is, Jhana mastery is that you enter the absorption and emerging from at your wish and you are fully aware of it.
Your recollection sounds similar to the self-declared DW Jhana Masters, such as Budo & Pulsar, who seem to believe "the self" attains jhana. As for the sutta, it appears to say:
“That must be because Venerable Sāriputta has long ago totally eradicated ego, possessiveness, and the underlying tendency to conceit."

https://suttacentral.net/sn28.1/en/sujato
The emphasis appears should as follows:
“Reverend, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. But it didn’t occur to me: ‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”
In other words, when speaking to others, Sariputta uses the convention of "I" and "me". But when meditating in jhana, there is no thought of "I" & "me" & "I am" in the mind of Sariputta.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Dinsdale
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Re: SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:07 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:05 pm
SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?
“Reverend, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. But it didn’t occur to me: ‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”
My question is whether this Sutta is in contradiction with another teaching.
What I can recall is, Jhana mastery is that you enter the absorption and emerging from at your wish and you are fully aware of it.
Then he went on to say that he has attained these Jhanas.
I think the final paragraph of this sutta clarifies the situation. Sariputra was aware of being in jhana, but didn't regard it as "me" and "mine".
https://suttacentral.net/sn28.1/en/sujato
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SarathW
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Re: SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:55 am

I think this Sutta is describing the nature of Arahattaphala Samadhi.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:04 pm

If sariputta were to enter second third or fourth jhana , he would still be the same , five aggregates being penetrated as not self , jhana is but a tool .
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ToVincent
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Re: SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?

Post by ToVincent » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:40 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:05 pm
SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?
“Reverend, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. But it didn’t occur to me: ‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”
My question is whether this Sutta is in contradiction with another teaching.
Note: In SN 28, only SN 28.10 has a parallel; and that parallel doesn't adress the issue of "I am".
SN 8.1 does not have a parallel - yet it does not conflict with the Teaching.


The suttas of reference when it comes to "I am" are SN 22.47 (https://justpaste.it/vyhx) and SN 22.89 (both with quite perfect parallels).

"I" and "mine" are a satta's process; a purely "wordly" view.
As per SN 35.82 (// SA 231), the Buddhist "world" is:
- form, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition.
- ear, ear-consciousness…
...
- mano, mano-consciousness...
All disintegrating, ([危脆 (breakable) 敗壞 (decaying)]) .

In other words, the world is defined as the ajjhatika āyatana (internal field of sensory experience,) encountering the bāhira āyatana (external field of sensory experience,) the ensuing consciousness of that internal field, and the contact (transferred property from the external ayatana to the internal one) - that leads to one of the three feelings.
An experience that is intrinsically liable to decay.

This is what satta experiences in the "world".

The proper way to see things, is first to get rid of the "I am THIS". That is to say path 1 in this sketch [ https://justpaste.it/1n1ii ] - this is "seclusion" #1 ( https://justpaste.it/1lvy7 ).

Then one must get rid of path 2 - the "I am" process. This happens when the khandhas from the nāmarūpa nidāna, descend (avakkanti) directly in the internal fields of sensory experience (ajjhatikāni āyatanāni). This is what makes us believe that there is a "I am" (although the khandhas are not "ours" (SN 22.33)) .
He regards feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self (viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati), or self as possessing consciousness (viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ), or consciousness as in self (attani vā viññāṇaṃ), or self as in consciousness (viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ).

Thus this way of regarding things and the notion ‘I am’ (‘asmī’ti) have not vanished in him. As ‘I am’ has not vanished, there takes place a descent of the five faculties (indriyānaṃ avakkanti hoti)

Note: And it is this descent of the five internal indriyas ( https://justpaste.it/194od ) ["powering" the internal fields of sensory experience], that allows form, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact... ear, ear-consciousness… etc., (the "wordly" process and the ensuing "I am THIS".
Note also that path #2 occurs first in "forward paṭiccasamuppāda", so to speak. Then path #1 occurs.
While in "rewind paṭiccasamuppāda" (escape/enlightenment), one must get rid of path #1 first; then of path #2.
----

As Satta enters the jhānic process, he/she transcends towards a purer and purer citta.
The citta gets more and more "established" (samadhi).
The cit is what sees and understands.
A "purer" citta is what sees and understands clearly, without the pollution of the external & the internal āyatanāni.

A liberated citta is a ceto that is liberated from the "world" (cetovimutti).
The citta sees and understands from the rupa-loka; not the kama-loka anymore.
That is to say that the "purer citta" sees now from the perspective of the nāmarūpa nidāna; not from the saḷāyatana nidāna anymore.

If we consider SN 28.1 as a plausible early sutta, then Venerable Sāriputta's seclusion (viveka) is absolute. Venerable Sāriputta is beyond Venerable Khemaka's attainment, in that he has totally cast the "wordly" internal away as well.
This sutta is not in contradiction with the Teaching.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

SarathW
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Re: SN28.1-10 Born of seclusion?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:35 am

I found the sutta which talks about entering and emerging from Jhana.

===========
At Sāvatthī.

“Mendicants, there are these four meditators. What four?

One meditator is skilled in immersion but not in entering it.

One meditator is not skilled in immersion but is skilled in entering it.

One meditator is skilled neither in immersion nor in entering it.

One meditator is skilled both in immersion and in entering it.

Of these, the meditator skilled in immersion and in entering it is the foremost, best, chief, highest, and finest of the four.

From a cow comes milk, from milk comes curds, from curds come butter, from butter comes ghee, and from ghee comes cream of ghee. And the cream of ghee is said to be the best of these.

In the same way, the meditator skilled in immersion and entering it is the foremost, best, leading, highest, and finest of the four.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn34.1/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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