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Different methods of Vipassana?

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:59 pm
by ChooChoo
How many different methods of Vipassana came out of Burma? I am just learning about Mahasi and read about Mogok sayadaw on here. Are there any others? Where can I learn more a bout them?

Re: Different mehtods of Vipassana?

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:23 pm
by mikenz66
From listening to talks and reading, my impression is that that a large variety of meditation approaches were developed in Theravada-oriented countries (not just Burma). A relatively small number are known in the West because Western students became involved with them.

See this post, for example:
Living Dharma/Buddhist Masters. Baraz/Kornfield.
viewtopic.php?t=25644

:heart:
Mike

Re: Different mehtods of Vipassana?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:07 pm
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
First let me quote one of my posts, ... deleted some parts unrelated to this topic.
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:52 pm
...
...

Before me is a volume of an 1600-page work of art in Burmese, elaborating the different techniques for vipassana by 81 well revered Maha Theras in Myanmar. Some of them may be quite familiar to interested foreigners: Ledi, Webu, Taung Pu Lu, Mahasi, Mogok, Pa Uk, Shwe Oo Min, etc. (many great next generation teachers instructing similar methods are not included in the tome, if they are in the same traditions, for example U Pandita, and Chanmyay Sayadaw of Mahasi tradition).

There's a technique by a strange named called "a Maha Thera who don't want his name to be known". However, his technique is not strange: simply based on Maha Satipatthana sutta.

One of them, after illuminating the technique to the public at times in the retreats in or near the forests, "ran away" from the crowd to some unknown forest and his where-about is currently unknown.

Some digested the whole Tipitaka & accompanied commentaries into heart. Some was abhidhamma genius.

For some of them jhana first; for the others, not.

Some instructed in the light of suttas; some, visuddhimagga.

Some may start from anapana, some from four elements; some from illuminating right-view and DO first, ... etc.
...
...


That said, i think, the following is some good resource related to the topic post, although i don't agree on some points.
https://ariyajoti.wordpress.com/2016/04 ... o-present/
A short introduction of Buddhist meditation lineages in Myanmar: From late nineteen century to present
πŸ™πŸ»πŸ™πŸ»πŸ™πŸ»
metta

Re: Different mehtods of Vipassana?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:28 pm
by ChooChoo
Are there any monasteries that are still part of the Ledi Sayadaw lineage and do they teach meditation? If so I wonder how it differs from what they teach at Goenkas retreats?

Thanks for the replies.

Re: Different mehtods of Vipassana?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:05 pm
by budo
ChooChoo wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:28 pm
Are there any monasteries that are still part of the Ledi Sayadaw lineage and do they teach meditation? If so I wonder how it differs from what they teach at Goenkas retreats?

Thanks for the replies.
You can read Ledi Sayadaw's works. It doesn't seem much different than U ba khin (goenka's teacher). I've read most of the free stuff I find online, you can find most of his english translations free online. The only one which I couldn't find is Manual of Light.

https://store.pariyatti.org/Ledi-Sayadaw_c_253.html

His stuff is rooted in the Vissuddhimagga moreso than the suttas, fyi, like most vipassana methods.

edit: just found manual of light, what a coincidence

http://mahajana.net/texts/manual08.html

Re: Different mehtods of Vipassana?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:00 pm
by ChooChoo
Cool thanks budo. I will look into it.

Are there monasteries in Myanmar that still teach Ledi Sayadas Method?

Re: Different mehtods of Vipassana?

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:00 am
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
ChooChoo wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:00 pm
...
...
Are there monasteries in Myanmar that still teach Ledi Sayadas Method?
Yes.
But, i don't know much.

πŸ™πŸ»πŸ™πŸ»πŸ™πŸ»

Re: Different mehtods of Vipassana?

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:20 am
by thomaslaw
Vipassana is in fact found in the earliest Buddhist texts, Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyukta-agama. E.g. see the Pali terms, passati (one sees) and janati (one knows), in the following book in pages 34, 52-61:

Choong Mun-keat. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism: A Comparative Study Based on the Sutra-anga portion of the Pali Samyutta-Nikaya and the Chinese Samyukta-agama (Series: Beitrage zur Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden, 2000).

:buddha1:

Re: Different mehtods of Vipassana?

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:36 pm
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:00 am
ChooChoo wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:00 pm
...
...
Are there monasteries in Myanmar that still teach Ledi Sayadas Method?
Yes.
But, i don't know much.

πŸ™πŸ»πŸ™πŸ»πŸ™πŸ»
Please kindly be warned that what I have written below may be wrong.
===============

Here is what i've found.

Sources:
... Burmese books on biographies of Ledi Sayadaw, Saya Thetgyi, U Ba Khin
... Eng. sources from the web


The vipassana methods taught these days in meditation centers In the traditions of "Ledi Sayadaw, Saya Thetgyi, U Ba Khin, Goenkaji" all belong most probably to Ledi Sayadaw's teaching filtered through his student Saya Thetgyi who had been unequivocally endorsed by Sayadaw himself even to teach Sayadaw's own student-monks.

This approach/method is just one of the different methods which were given to different students by Ledi Sayadaw. Highly likely that this is his most preferred instructed method towards the end of his life.

Sayadaw practiced white kasina in early periods with attainment of "very wide nimmita". He didn't like the result and switched to anapana and most probably attained five jhanas fluently during three months of vasa, according to some sources. He clearly stated that samatha is needed for insight to develop; while jhana level samadhi is optional. (However, i'm also of the opinion that samatha and insight can go together hand to hand, right from the beginning.)

Sayadaw sometimes tended to explain things, clearly not in accordance with Ven. Buddhaghosa on commentaries, knowingly of course. [btw, ven. Mahasi also used to describe and comment what he regarded as alternative explanation to Ven. Buddhaghosa in his burmese translation of visuddhimagga.]

As stated in U Ba Khin biography book, Saya Thetgyi practiced samatha about seven years under the guidance of Thit Cha Taung Sayadaw U Tiloka before taking vipassana instructions from Ledi Sayadaw. And, as stated in Saya Thetgyi biography book, he has other teachers before becoming a long accompanied student of Ledi Sayadaw.

Saya Thetgyi at first also taught some of his students white kasina among others, in addition to anapana. Later anapana became the main one. Interestingly, in his early days of teachings, he gave his students samatha medatation for 2 to 3 years before switching to vipassana, while later shortened that samatha duration to seven days.

Under guidence of an acquaitance who had just finished ten day retreat of Saya Thetgyi, U Ba Khin got the anapana ninitta [which he was able to manipulate at will] even within a short moment (?within minutes) after practicing according to instruction, on 1st January 1937. Of course, he had previous exposures to Ledi Books, abhidhamma and meditation practice probably since 1931. Seven days later he was in Saya Thetgyi's retreat.

Some examples for comparison:
Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's? https://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/in ... 2#msg12062

u ba khin
https://host.pariyatti.org/treasures/Bu ... n_1960.pdf

SNG
https://medium.com/weareco/this-meditat ... abdbae56f3


Saya Thetgyi (Ledi method) instructed by U Thein around 1960.
from: Journey Into Burmese Silence - by Marie Beuzeville Byles (1900 - 1979)
Maha Bodhi Meditation center, Mandalay
http://host.pariyatti.org/treasures/Jou ... ilence.pdf
The Appendix is booklet of instructions in Vipassana method practised at Maha Bodhi, may be around 1960.
Present days experiences as a visitor: -->
https://www.myanmarpilgrimage.com/burma ... dalay.html


Ledi method (? of saya thet) re-popularized? by a Dwi pitaka dhara Monk - organizing many retreats in various parts of Burma today, based in Yangon, imo.




videos: (some facts may be incorrect as explained below)
Ledi Ven. Ledi Sayadaw - a talk by Patrick Given-Wilson

(It is obviously wrong to say that king Thipaw was fetched by bullock cart from Mandalay through to Rangoon. // in his Burmese biography, it doesn't say Ledi Sayadaw used hundreds of pencils per night, it simply says hundreds of pencils need to be sharpened at a time for easy uninterrupted use.--- although these, among others, are not much related to dhamma, it tarnishes the authenticity of facts related to his Dhamma)

Saya Thetgyi: a talk by Patrick Given-Wilson

brief biography of saya thetgyi
https://host.pariyatti.org/treasures/Sayagyi_U_Thet.pdf

U Ba Khin Sayagyi U Ba Khin: a talk by Patrick Given-Wilson





My impression:
Ledi Sayadaw: extremely important figure in Burma Buddhism. However, he was not the only one in history as some used to think, there were many before him as well as his contemporaries. (Actually, until mid-twenties, thanks to my lack of knowledge of course, i don't remember, knowing him as an established one in "meditation", but rather as a great scholar. The more familiar names related to "meditation" in my early years were Taung Pu Lu, Webu, Sun Lun, The' Inn Gu, Mahasi, Mogok, and U Ba Khin among others)

Saya Thetgyi:
Important link in "householder lineage", and for crystalization of "the method".

U Ba Khin:
Very talented and powerful person

Goenkaji:
Super gifted in spreading the Dhamma and unquestionably loyal to his teacher, and Dhamma in general, whatever some may say. It is a very wise move that Goenkaji's method is strictly preserved, and many (if not most or all) centers around the world used the same recordings as instructions long before his demise without needing his personal involvement. Still, haters (including a tiny chunk of ex-students "not all") gonna hate, inversely proportional to their level of Dhamma. They tend to blame on "the method" rather than their own kilesa. Sure, it is not the only method out there; and sure, many will continue to be benefited from this method, [--- whether they happen to be a recidivist imate of a most notorious prison, or political leaders of India, or a president of Sri Lankan, or twitter CEO Jack Dorsey, or a rocket scientist, or an atheist, or a Christian, or a Lama, or an Iranian --- ], either to happily remain in the tradition with ongoing advancement in Dhamma, or to profitably apply the fruits of this practice in other methods of their later choice.

πŸ™πŸ»πŸ™πŸ»πŸ™πŸ»

Re: Different mehtods of Vipassana?

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:40 pm
by DooDoot
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:36 pm
Still, haters (including a tiny chunk of ex-students "not all") gonna hate, inversely proportional to their level of Dhamma. They tend to blame on "the method" rather than their own kilesa.
The reality is most, maybe all, of the above techniques have no basis in the suttas, particularly Goenka. To reject Goenka is not "hate".

Re: Different methods of Vipassana?

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:02 am
by ChooChoo
SABBE_DHAMMA_ANATTA Thanks for taking the time to write out that reply. I will look into reading Ledi Sayadaws writings. :reading:

Re: Different methods of Vipassana?

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:17 am
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
ChooChoo wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:02 am
SABBE_DHAMMA_ANATTA Thanks for taking the time to write out that reply. I will look into reading Ledi Sayadaws writings. :reading:
Thanks, too. I also learn a lot on trying to reply.

Re: Different methods of Vipassana?

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:05 pm
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta

Re: Different methods of Vipassana?

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:15 pm
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Mohynin

http://burmadhamma.blogspot.com/2015/01 ... y.html?m=1
Mohynin Sayadaw was one of the most prominent students of Ledi Sayadaw, ...
I don't know about that relationship before; however, his meditation approach is quite different from Saya Thetgyi lineage. So, as i have mentioned in a previous post, Ledi Sayadaw seemed to have different methods in his arsenal for different students.

Or, maybe a combination of approaches also from a couple of other teachers prior to meeting with Ledi Sayadaw.

Re: Different methods of Vipassana?

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:13 pm
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
The inn gu / Theingu

My writtings of the following method may be wrong.
I just know majority of these today.

=========

Thae Inn Gu (Sayadaw Ashin [Ajan] Okkatta)
Book-student of Sunlun (practicing by following the method found in Sunlun Sayadaw Biography book)
http://burmadhamma.blogspot.com/2015/08 ... n.html?m=1



(Ashin Sandimar)
Thae inn gu (32nd branch)-s
IMO, this needs some mentioning in that:
1. Not very much found in Eng. sources
2. The method is not much identical with that of Thae inn gu, but The sayadaw Achin Sandimar who has developed (Thae inn gu - 32 branch) method felt so grateful for some teachings of former Thae inn gu sayadaw that he decided to continue using the name with the suffix (32nd-branch), even though ashin sandimar's followers have suggested to use a new name.
3. Gained very rapidly expanding popularity in recent years
4. Very strict rules
5. Dutanga friendly retreats for monks available
6. It's not uncommon to manage through five hours straight sittings in full lotus position on the very first retreats of 9 days.
7. Even children can manage 5 hours in lotus (i recently heard and saw the photo about 10 years old girl who managed full lotus 5 hours sitting twice in a retreat), and a six year old novice - see below, and some other children doing so.
8. Adults doing more than 10 hours straight in full lotus are also not uncommon)
9. It is famous for strict rules, and yet rapidly expanding, in parts of Burma. Some in USA, & melbourne.
10. Long-hour retreats includes 15 hours straight sittings (as far as i learnt, it doesn't need so many retreats to reach that level, if one is able. May be one or some 9-day retreats, then "polishing course" may be around 10 days, then long-hour retreats (20 days / 45 days ?). New students managed to do so in 20 days course for new students.
11. Anapana meditation similar to (or same as?) Sunlun / Theingu method, and generally going for jhana level samadhi within days, during 9 days vipassana retreat.

Melbourne
https://m.facebook.com/TheInnGu32DhammaViharaMelbourne/

USA
https://m.facebook.com/Theinngu32USA/

centres in myanmar
https://m.facebook.com/Theinngu32/

All from FB publicly available

rare post in English (in england)




bhikkhu




child friendly




nuns







Abhidhama teachings 1


Abhidhama teachings 2


Abhidhama teachings 3








Some "ladies" from long hour vasa retreat in 2018
Standing far right seems a "westerner"
Standing far left, i'm quite sure, was a famous movie actress. If i remember right, in 2017?, she had successfully managed five hrs sitting in full lotus) So, it is highly likely that she managed at least 15 hours sittings in this 2018 long-hour ?45 days retreat.






20 days course for new students
15 hours (1 pm to 4 am ) continuous sitting short video 2-3 minutes
(all are new students - amazing!)









5 hrs in full lotus








(six year old) novice managed through 5 hr sit




melbourne kids








centre at sayadaw's home town





yangon city center






a center near Mandalay city






one of new centres


Edited: some years / grammar