What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:48 pm

The MS commentary to Sellekha Sutta has it;
Insight meditation and absorption have some characteristics in common. When the practice of mindfulness is well established at the exploratory stage, i.e. knowledge by comprehension (sammasanañāna), there are initial application (vitakka), sustained application (vicāra), joy (pīti), bliss (sukha), and one-pointedness (ekagattā). Thus, whenever the meditator observes any phenomenon, his insight meditation is somewhat like the first absorption with its five characteristics.

When the meditator gains insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of all phenomena, he is fully aware of an arising object without initial or sustained application. He has intense joy, bliss, and tranquillity, thus his meditation is somewhat like the second absorption with its three attributes.
So my question is if anybody knows what he means by Initial and Sustained application of Mind?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
budo
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am
Location: The world

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by budo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:44 pm

I can't say what MS means by it, but Leigh Brasington's book "Right Concentration" which is an in depth guide to the Jhanas, he analyzes all the suttas on the jhanas and the jhana factors and he compares the visuddhimagga definition of vitaka and vicara with the sutta definition.

The visuddhimagga definition of vitaka and vicara is putting your attention on an object and maintaining it.

The sutta definition of vitakka and vicara is thinking and more thinking, in other words when you're in second jhana, vitaka and vicara disappear and there is no more thinking in the background.


Visuddhimagga: "the first two factors are vitaka and vicara, which have been translated variously, from “thinking and pondering” to “initial and sustained attention on the meditation subject.” I tend to go with “initial and sustained attention on the meditation subject.”‘ That is, putting your attention on the object and keeping your attention on the object."

https://tricycle.org/magazine/mind-pure ... nd-bright/

""Vicara" is ‘sustained thinking’ on the meditation theme. Like vitakka, vicara is also a mental factor that happens only to some minds. Its direct function is to take over after vitakka has lifted consciousness to the meditation theme. At that point, vicara will then be responsible for taking care of the mind and making sure that it stays in that state of meditation. If vitakka does not perform its function first, then vicara can do nothing. Or, if vitakka has successfully lifted consciousness to the meditation theme but vicara does not perform its duty, then the mind will fall into the passive state (bhavanga)."

http://the-wanderling.com/jhana_factors.html

Sutta: "The suttas describe the first jhana as being “accompanied by thinking and examining” and “filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion.” These four qualities are often identified as factors of the first jhana: thinking and examining, rapture and happiness. The thinking and examining are translations of the Pali words vitakka and vicara. The commentaries interpret these words to mean initial and sustained attention on the meditation object. Now, it’s true that in order to do any sort of concentrated meditation, you need initial and sustained attention on the meditation object. However, this doesn’t appear to be what the Buddha is talking about: in the suttas, vitakka and vicara always and only refer to thinking. When you generate access concentration and sustain it, there may still be a bit of thinking in the background, which can basically be ignored. This background thinking persists in the first jhana and is what is being referred to by the words vitakka and vicara."

https://www.lionsroar.com/entering-the-jhanas/

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:05 pm

thanks for the post
still curious about what MS meant tho :shrug:
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

paul
Posts: 1360
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by paul » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:32 am

Since Burmese meditation is based on the Visuddhimagga, it is certain Mahasi Sayadaw means as described there in chapter IV, 88-92:

"89. And, though sometimes not separate, applied thought is the first impact of
the mind in the sense that it is both gross and inceptive, like the striking of a bell.
Sustained thought is the act of keeping the mind anchored, in the sense that it is
subtle with the individual essence of continued pressure, like the ringing of the
bell. Applied thought intervenes, being the interference of consciousness at the
time of first arousing [thought], like a bird’s spreading out its wings when
about to soar into the air, and like a bee’s diving towards a lotus when it is
minded to follow up the scent of it. The behaviour of sustained thought is quiet,
being the near non-interference of consciousness, like the bird’s planing with
outspread wings after soaring into the air, and like the bee’s buzzing above the
lotus after it has dived towards it."

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:54 am

paul wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:32 am
Since Burmese meditation is based on the Visuddhimagga, it is certain Mahasi Sayadaw means as described there in chapter IV, 88-92:

"89. And, though sometimes not separate, applied thought is the first impact of
the mind in the sense that it is both gross and inceptive, like the striking of a bell.
Sustained thought is the act of keeping the mind anchored, in the sense that it is
subtle with the individual essence of continued pressure, like the ringing of the
bell. Applied thought intervenes, being the interference of consciousness at the
time of first arousing [thought], like a bird’s spreading out its wings when
about to soar into the air, and like a bee’s diving towards a lotus when it is
minded to follow up the scent of it. The behaviour of sustained thought is quiet,
being the near non-interference of consciousness, like the bird’s planing with
outspread wings after soaring into the air, and like the bee’s buzzing above the
lotus after it has dived towards it."
it seems to me that the meaning is applied and sustained thought then.

I am still confused by this passage;
When the meditator gains insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of all phenomena, he is fully aware of an arising object without initial or sustained application. He has intense joy, bliss, and tranquillity, thus his meditation is somewhat like the second absorption with its three attributes.
i guess the meaning here is that one is not distracted from the [theme of] observing the arising and cessation of phenomena rather than the absence of thought therein because thought is also a class of phenomena that can be known to arise and cease?

I wonder if the verbalization of mental noting and the thoughts associated with mental noting do not constitute applied and sustained application of thought tho or if that kind of thinking is also non-manifesting in the case described above?

:shrug:
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
budo
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am
Location: The world

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by budo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:57 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:54 am
I wonder if the verbalization of mental noting and the thoughts associated with mental noting do not constitute applied and sustained application of thought tho or if that kind of thinking is also non-manifesting in the case described above?

:shrug:
In Nissarana Vinaya, where Ayya Khema learned Jhanas, they follow a modified Mahasi Sayadaw system, basically Nanarama took Mahasi's system and adjusted it to fit the suttas better, so it uses in and out breath rather than abdomen rising and falling. Also they say not to verbalize the noting and instead make the mind synchronize/align with the in and out breath. So yes, I would say that verbalizing is even worse than applied and sustained application when it comes to 2nd jhana which should not have thoughts. Also when comparing the Buddhist 2nd jhana with the Vedic Hindu Dhayana (which they copied from Buddhism) detailed in Pātañjalayogaśāstra, they also call it "No-thought state".

They copied Vicara and called it Savichara, and Vitakka as Savitarka, and the goal is to still both and have "Nirvichara and Nirvitarka Samadhi"

So I think verbalizing would prevent one from entering 2nd jhana, and possibly even first jhana.

paul
Posts: 1360
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by paul » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:58 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:54 am
I am still confused by this passage;
When the meditator gains insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of all phenomena, he is fully aware of an arising object without initial or sustained application. He has intense joy, bliss, and tranquillity, thus his meditation is somewhat like the second absorption with its three attributes.
It means the meditator has internalised a knowledge of impermanence, and applies it immediately.

"The “refrain” instructs the meditator to contemplate “the nature of arising”, “the nature of passing away”, and “the nature of both arising and passing away”.37 Paralleling the instruction on internal and external contemplation, the three parts of this instruction represent a temporal progression which leads from observing the arising aspect of phenomena to focusing on their disappearance, and culminates in a comprehensive vision of impermanence as such. According to the discourses, not seeing the arising and passing away of phenomena is simply ignorance, while to regard all phenomena as impermanent leads to knowledge and understanding.38 Insight into the impermanence of the five aggregates or of the six sense-spheres is “right view”, and thereby leads directly on to realization.39 Thus the direct experience of impermanence represents indeed the “power” aspect of meditative wisdom.40 These passages clearly show the central importance of developing a direct experience of the impermanent nature of all phenomena, as envisaged in this part of the satipatthãna “refrain”. The same is reflected in the commentarial scheme of the insight knowledges, which details key experiences to be encountered during the path to realization, where the stage of apprehending the arising and passing away of phenomena is of central importance.41"---"Satipatthana", Analayo.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:21 am

paul wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:58 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:54 am
I am still confused by this passage;
When the meditator gains insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of all phenomena, he is fully aware of an arising object without initial or sustained application. He has intense joy, bliss, and tranquillity, thus his meditation is somewhat like the second absorption with its three attributes.
It means the meditator has internalised a knowledge of impermanence, and applies it immediately.

"The “refrain” instructs the meditator to contemplate “the nature of arising”, “the nature of passing away”, and “the nature of both arising and passing away”.37 Paralleling the instruction on internal and external contemplation, the three parts of this instruction represent a temporal progression which leads from observing the arising aspect of phenomena to focusing on their disappearance, and culminates in a comprehensive vision of impermanence as such. According to the discourses, not seeing the arising and passing away of phenomena is simply ignorance, while to regard all phenomena as impermanent leads to knowledge and understanding.38 Insight into the impermanence of the five aggregates or of the six sense-spheres is “right view”, and thereby leads directly on to realization.39 Thus the direct experience of impermanence represents indeed the “power” aspect of meditative wisdom.40 These passages clearly show the central importance of developing a direct experience of the impermanent nature of all phenomena, as envisaged in this part of the satipatthãna “refrain”. The same is reflected in the commentarial scheme of the insight knowledges, which details key experiences to be encountered during the path to realization, where the stage of apprehending the arising and passing away of phenomena is of central importance.41"---"Satipatthana", Analayo.
thanks paul.
Do you mean to suggest that if the Mahasi passage is to be reconciled with the excerpt by Analayo it would follow that the the knowledge of impermanence would at the stage of insight knowledge of rising and passing away of phenomena become the default state of viewing phenomena so that no volition need to be excreted to view phenomena as impremanent and that the verbalization of mental noting still persists?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:31 am

budo wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:57 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:54 am
I wonder if the verbalization of mental noting and the thoughts associated with mental noting do not constitute applied and sustained application of thought tho or if that kind of thinking is also non-manifesting in the case described above?

:shrug:
In Nissarana Vinaya, where Ayya Khema learned Jhanas, they follow a modified Mahasi Sayadaw system, basically Nanarama took Mahasi's system and adjusted it to fit the suttas better, so it uses in and out breath rather than abdomen rising and falling. Also they say not to verbalize the noting and instead make the mind synchronize/align with the in and out breath. So yes, I would say that verbalizing is even worse than applied and sustained application when it comes to 2nd jhana which should not have thoughts. Also when comparing the Buddhist 2nd jhana with the Vedic Hindu Dhayana (which they copied from Buddhism) detailed in Pātañjalayogaśāstra, they also call it "No-thought state".

They copied Vicara and called it Savichara, and Vitakka as Savitarka, and the goal is to still both and have "Nirvichara and Nirvitarka Samadhi"

So I think verbalizing would prevent one from entering 2nd jhana, and possibly even first jhana.
This is an interesting venue to explore, i take it you don't use noting in your practice? The way i see it noting would not prevent the cessation of aggregates as attainment of the path because at that time the whole complex of phenomena ceases altogether but i think it is plausible for it to be countering various states of concentration.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
budo
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am
Location: The world

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by budo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:46 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:31 am
budo wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:57 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:54 am
I wonder if the verbalization of mental noting and the thoughts associated with mental noting do not constitute applied and sustained application of thought tho or if that kind of thinking is also non-manifesting in the case described above?

:shrug:
In Nissarana Vinaya, where Ayya Khema learned Jhanas, they follow a modified Mahasi Sayadaw system, basically Nanarama took Mahasi's system and adjusted it to fit the suttas better, so it uses in and out breath rather than abdomen rising and falling. Also they say not to verbalize the noting and instead make the mind synchronize/align with the in and out breath. So yes, I would say that verbalizing is even worse than applied and sustained application when it comes to 2nd jhana which should not have thoughts. Also when comparing the Buddhist 2nd jhana with the Vedic Hindu Dhayana (which they copied from Buddhism) detailed in Pātañjalayogaśāstra, they also call it "No-thought state".

They copied Vicara and called it Savichara, and Vitakka as Savitarka, and the goal is to still both and have "Nirvichara and Nirvitarka Samadhi"

So I think verbalizing would prevent one from entering 2nd jhana, and possibly even first jhana.
This is an interesting venue to explore, i take it you don't use noting in your practice? The way i see it noting would not prevent the cessation of aggregates as attainment of the path because at that time the whole complex of phenomena ceases altogether but i think it is plausible for it to be countering various states of concentration.
I use noting when my mind is being extra-slothful and it needs a kick in the butt. When my mind is co-operating then I don't use noting.

Like everything else, it's important to see things as tools and as a means to an end, and not the end in itself. If you always use noting you'll never leave access concentration.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:07 am

budo wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:46 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:31 am
budo wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:57 am


In Nissarana Vinaya, where Ayya Khema learned Jhanas, they follow a modified Mahasi Sayadaw system, basically Nanarama took Mahasi's system and adjusted it to fit the suttas better, so it uses in and out breath rather than abdomen rising and falling. Also they say not to verbalize the noting and instead make the mind synchronize/align with the in and out breath. So yes, I would say that verbalizing is even worse than applied and sustained application when it comes to 2nd jhana which should not have thoughts. Also when comparing the Buddhist 2nd jhana with the Vedic Hindu Dhayana (which they copied from Buddhism) detailed in Pātañjalayogaśāstra, they also call it "No-thought state".

They copied Vicara and called it Savichara, and Vitakka as Savitarka, and the goal is to still both and have "Nirvichara and Nirvitarka Samadhi"

So I think verbalizing would prevent one from entering 2nd jhana, and possibly even first jhana.
This is an interesting venue to explore, i take it you don't use noting in your practice? The way i see it noting would not prevent the cessation of aggregates as attainment of the path because at that time the whole complex of phenomena ceases altogether but i think it is plausible for it to be countering various states of concentration.
I use noting when my mind is being extra-slothful and it needs a kick in the butt. When my mind is co-operating then I don't use noting.

Like everything else, it's important to see things as tools and as a means to an end, and not the end in itself. If you always use noting you'll never leave access concentration.
I also wonder how this reconciles with the meditations such as contemplation of the body which also leads to jhana but is totally based on thinking of sorts, perhaps thinking is abandoned when the Nimitta arises, what do you think?

As i see it the noting is a mean to an end either way because if one trains with noting for the cessation of the aggregates, the cessation is the goal and when it occurs the noting becomes impossible due to the cessation of sense bases.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
budo
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am
Location: The world

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by budo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:31 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:07 am

I also wonder how this reconciles with the meditations such as contemplation of the body which also leads to jhana but is totally based on thinking of sorts, perhaps thinking is abandoned when the Nimitta arises, what do you think?
Well the bridge is the nimitta, and if you were to ask Ayya Khemma / Leigh Brasington what that would be it would be feelings such as piti and sukha. If you were to ask Ajahn Brahm, it would be the visual nimitta. If you were to ask Bhikkhu Sona, he would say neither and one should focus on the features of the element so "Breath = airy lightness"

My personal belief is mix of all three. I follow Ayya Khema/Leigh Brasington with entering first jhana because it matches Anapanasati. I would then switch to the visual nimitta once the feelings have subsided and to transition to the "mental" satipatthana. The jhanas are basically feelings and mental phenomena, so you're supposed to use those factors as bridges to move through the 4 satipatthanas.

So the nimitta is whatever bridge you need to take you to the next satipatthana.
As i see it the noting is a mean to an end either way because if one trains with noting for the cessation of the aggregates, the cessation is the goal and when it occurs the noting becomes impossible due to the cessation of sense bases.
It depends which cessation you're referring to. The sutta DN9 is about cessation of perception, in which case Jhanas are required and so noting would be a hindrance to second jhana.

If your goal is cessation of passion and the gross defilements leading to non-return, as explained in AN 4.41, then yes you can note all the way there, after non-return though you'll need the aid of cessation of perception (jhanas) and drop the noting practice.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:58 am

budo wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:31 am
As i see it the noting is a mean to an end either way because if one trains with noting for the cessation of the aggregates, the cessation is the goal and when it occurs the noting becomes impossible due to the cessation of sense bases.
It depends which cessation you're referring to. The sutta DN9 is about cessation of perception, in which case Jhanas are required and so noting would be a hindrance to second jhana.

If your goal is cessation of passion and the gross defilements leading to non-return, as explained in AN 4.41, then yes you can note all the way there, after non-return though you'll need the aid of cessation of perception (jhanas) and drop the noting practice.
As i wrote i was referring to the cessation of senses bases by which the world is perceived and conceived of, the cessation of All [conditioned phenomena], non arising of namarupa and consciousness for the discernment of the Unmade.

Jhana are not necessary for this as there are the Ariyans who don't have the jhanas but relied on dry insight;
Abhidhamma states;
The Puggalapaññatti (p.185) defines the one attained to understanding as a person who understands the Four Noble Truths, has seen and verified by means of wisdom the teachings proclaimed by the Tathāgata, and having seen with wisdom has eliminated some of his cankers. He is thus the „wisdom counterpart“ of the one liberated by faith, but progresses more easily than the latter by virtue of his sharper wisdom. Like his counterpart, he may possess any of the four mundane jhānas or may be a dry-insight worker.
or the AN4.163 describing modes of practice with and without jhana
"And which is painful practice with slow intuition? There is the case where a monk remains focused on unattractiveness with regard to the body, percipient of loathsomeness with regard to food, percipient of non-delight with regard to the entire world, (and) focused on inconstancy with regard to all fabrications. The perception of death is well established within him. He dwells in dependence on the five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — but these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear weakly. Because of their weakness, he attains only slowly the immediacy [1] that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called painful practice with slow intuition.

"And which is painful practice with quick intuition? There is the case where a monk remains focused on unattractiveness with regard to the body, percipient of loathsomeness with regard to food, percipient of non-delight with regard to the entire world, (and) focused on inconstancy with regard to all fabrications. The perception of death is well established within him. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — and these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear intensely. Because of their intensity, he attains quickly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called painful practice with quick intuition.

"And which is pleasant practice with slow intuition? There is the case where a monk — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of joy & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — but these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear weakly. Because of their weakness, he attains only slowly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called pleasant practice with slow intuition. [2]

"And which is pleasant practice with quick intuition? There is the case where a monk — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of joy & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — and these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear intensely. Because of their intensity, he attains quickly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called pleasant practice with quick intuition.

"These are the four modes of practice."
the only argumentation to refute the An4.163 that can be given is that concentration faculty is defined as jhana but this is countered by stating that the jhanas are not always defined as 5 factored in the Sutta http://www.leighb.com/jhana_4factors.htm
and therefore the insight worker well fulfils the criteria for what constitutes 4 factored jhana and is able to develop the five spiritual faculties and factors of enlightenment for cumination of discernment, thus the concentration faculty can be shown to be fulfilled either way.

There is more than enough Sutta, Abhidhamma and Commentary evidence in alignment to conclude that dry-insight path is real.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
budo
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am
Location: The world

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by budo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:14 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:58 am
budo wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:31 am
As i see it the noting is a mean to an end either way because if one trains with noting for the cessation of the aggregates, the cessation is the goal and when it occurs the noting becomes impossible due to the cessation of sense bases.
It depends which cessation you're referring to. The sutta DN9 is about cessation of perception, in which case Jhanas are required and so noting would be a hindrance to second jhana.

If your goal is cessation of passion and the gross defilements leading to non-return, as explained in AN 4.41, then yes you can note all the way there, after non-return though you'll need the aid of cessation of perception (jhanas) and drop the noting practice.
As i wrote i was referring to the cessation of senses bases by which the world is perceived and conceived of, the cessation of All [conditioned phenomena], non arising of namarupa and consciousness for the discernment of the Unmade.

Jhana are not necessary for this as there are the Ariyans who don't have the jhanas but relied on dry insight;
Abhidhamma states;

the only argumentation to refute the An4.163 that can be given is that concentration faculty is defined as jhana but this is countered by stating that the jhanas are not always defined as 5 factored in the Sutta and therefore the insight worker well fulfils the criteria for what constitutes 4 factored jhana and thus the concentration faculty can be shown to be fulfilled. http://www.leighb.com/jhana_4factors.htm

Thus there is more than enough Sutta, Abhidhamma and Commentary evidence in alignment to conclude that dry-insight path is real.
Yes I do not doubt that you can attain up to non-return without jhanas, but after non-return one needs jhanas. You can read Kheminda Thera's book "Way of Buddhist Meditation" if you want all his sutta arguments for this position.

https://archive.org/details/WayOfBuddhi ... mindaThera

Henepola Gunaratana says the same thing as well.

I've already discussed this topic several times, so there's nothing for me to gain out of discussing it again, and focusing on attainment practice is of more importance for me at the moment.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What does Mahasi Sayadaw mean by Initial Application of Mind?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:19 am

budo wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:14 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:58 am
budo wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:31 am

It depends which cessation you're referring to. The sutta DN9 is about cessation of perception, in which case Jhanas are required and so noting would be a hindrance to second jhana.

If your goal is cessation of passion and the gross defilements leading to non-return, as explained in AN 4.41, then yes you can note all the way there, after non-return though you'll need the aid of cessation of perception (jhanas) and drop the noting practice.
As i wrote i was referring to the cessation of senses bases by which the world is perceived and conceived of, the cessation of All [conditioned phenomena], non arising of namarupa and consciousness for the discernment of the Unmade.

Jhana are not necessary for this as there are the Ariyans who don't have the jhanas but relied on dry insight;
Abhidhamma states;

the only argumentation to refute the An4.163 that can be given is that concentration faculty is defined as jhana but this is countered by stating that the jhanas are not always defined as 5 factored in the Sutta and therefore the insight worker well fulfils the criteria for what constitutes 4 factored jhana and thus the concentration faculty can be shown to be fulfilled. http://www.leighb.com/jhana_4factors.htm

Thus there is more than enough Sutta, Abhidhamma and Commentary evidence in alignment to conclude that dry-insight path is real.
Yes I do not doubt that you can attain up to non-return without jhanas, but after non-return one needs jhanas. You can read Kheminda Thera's book "Way of Buddhist Meditation" if you want all his sutta arguments for this position.

https://archive.org/details/WayOfBuddhi ... mindaThera

Henepola Gunaratana says the same thing as well.

I've already discussed this topic several times, so there's nothing for me to gain out of discussing it again, and focusing on attainment practice is of more importance for me at the moment.
I misunderstood then because you said that for the cessation of perception jhanas were required and i assumed that you meant that the dry insight worker could not attain it.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests