Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
According to Patisamvhidamagga there are eighteen kinds of knowledge of imperfection (page 165).
It appears the following two are imperfections even though some teachers recommend it.
Please discuss.
1)When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and end of the in-breath, his cognizance being distracted internally, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited.
2)When he goes out with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and end of the out-breath, his cognizance being distracted internally, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited.
https://centrebouddhistetheravada.files ... namoli.pdf
Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
It's just the hindrance of restlessness. You are not practicing wrongly, you just need to be aware of the hindrance and return to the breath. As far as I know, no teachers recommend being excited.
If you are referring to following the breath inside the body, yes that does lead to wavering and shaking of the body. This is why the Buddha used the simile of the guard at the gate, you don't follow the people entering the city, you just see who comes in and out.
If you are referring to following the breath inside the body, yes that does lead to wavering and shaking of the body. This is why the Buddha used the simile of the guard at the gate, you don't follow the people entering the city, you just see who comes in and out.
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
Where? Please quote. Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
It seems he mixed up two Sutta's.Where? Please quote. Thanks
I am not sure how to apply this two sutta to my question.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
Actually, the simile of the gatekeeper following the breath/person comes from the Vissuddhimagga, but the simile of the saw (focusing only on the nose-tip, and not the moving of the saw) comes from the Patisambidhamagga. The meditation book by Ajahn Sona says the Buddha said the Gatekeeper simile, but I can't find the sutta for it. There are many suttas where the Buddha uses a gatekeeper and walled-city simile for different meanings like 5 hinderances, mindfulness, etc..
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
My interpretation of this is to be aware of the whole breath body, but not to take the beginning, middle, and end of the breath body as your meditation subject.
The contact of the breath as a whole is the meditation object.
The contact of the breath as a whole is the meditation object.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."
http://vipassanameditation.asia
http://vipassanameditation.asia
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
Agree.My interpretation of this is to be aware of the whole breath body
This was the instruction form Ven Kumara Kassapa which was in Sinhalese language.
The question is what is breath body.
There are many bodies mentioned. Material body, feeling body, Sankhara body etc.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
I think the interpretation is the one of chasing/following the breath outside the nose area as it gives this poem. As chasing the breath makes you fatigued just like the poem says. This poem refers to the first 6 imperfections
Mindfulness running after in-breath
And running after out-breath, too,
Expecting distraction inwardly,
Loving distraction outwardly,
The longing for out-breath in one
Who is by in-breath much fatigued,
The longing for in-breath in one
Who is by out-breath much fatigued;
These six defects in concentration
Based upon mindfulness of breathing
Are such as will prevent release
Of cognizance that they distract;
And those who know not liberation
Perforce must trust in others' words.
Also the next poem which covers the next 6 imperfections says you shouldn't look at the nimitta if you can still feel or note the breath. And also that you should only focus on one part of the breath at a time. So focus on in-breath, then out-breath, when both in-breath and out-breath are gone, focus on nimitta.
Adverting to the sign the while the mind
Is still distracted by in-breath;
Adverting to in-breath while cognizance
Can still be shaken by the sign;
Adverting to the sign the while the mind
Is still distracted by out-breath;
Adverting to out-breath while cognizance
Can still be shaken by the sign;
Adverting to in-breath the while the mind
Is still distracted by out-breath;
Adverting to out-breath while cognizance
Can still be shaken by in-breath:
These six defects in concentration
Based upon mindfulness of breathing
Are such as will prevent release
Of cognizance that they can shake;
And those who know not liberation
Perforce must trust in others' words.
The question I have is, is it seems like it's saying you should note (cognizance) at the end of the breath instead of during the breath, so you breath in, note (e.g. long), breath out, note (e.g. short), see my coloring above
---
The next 6 imperfections are the 5 hindrances + thinking about past/future in regards to the breath, which is also chasing the breath. And also that shaking and distracting the cognizance prevents higher cognizance because these imperfections "stain his thought".
The viewing of each in-breath and out-breath separately, as well as not looking at the nimitta until the breaths are gone is confirmed by this poem
Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object
Of a single cognizance;
One knowing not these three ideas
Does not obtain development. [171]
Sign,in-breath, out-breath,
are not object
Of a single cognizance;
One knowing well these three ideas
Can then obtain development.
Mindfulness running after in-breath
And running after out-breath, too,
Expecting distraction inwardly,
Loving distraction outwardly,
The longing for out-breath in one
Who is by in-breath much fatigued,
The longing for in-breath in one
Who is by out-breath much fatigued;
These six defects in concentration
Based upon mindfulness of breathing
Are such as will prevent release
Of cognizance that they distract;
And those who know not liberation
Perforce must trust in others' words.
Also the next poem which covers the next 6 imperfections says you shouldn't look at the nimitta if you can still feel or note the breath. And also that you should only focus on one part of the breath at a time. So focus on in-breath, then out-breath, when both in-breath and out-breath are gone, focus on nimitta.
Adverting to the sign the while the mind
Is still distracted by in-breath;
Adverting to in-breath while cognizance
Can still be shaken by the sign;
Adverting to the sign the while the mind
Is still distracted by out-breath;
Adverting to out-breath while cognizance
Can still be shaken by the sign;
Adverting to in-breath the while the mind
Is still distracted by out-breath;
Adverting to out-breath while cognizance
Can still be shaken by in-breath:
These six defects in concentration
Based upon mindfulness of breathing
Are such as will prevent release
Of cognizance that they can shake;
And those who know not liberation
Perforce must trust in others' words.
The question I have is, is it seems like it's saying you should note (cognizance) at the end of the breath instead of during the breath, so you breath in, note (e.g. long), breath out, note (e.g. short), see my coloring above
---
The next 6 imperfections are the 5 hindrances + thinking about past/future in regards to the breath, which is also chasing the breath. And also that shaking and distracting the cognizance prevents higher cognizance because these imperfections "stain his thought".
The viewing of each in-breath and out-breath separately, as well as not looking at the nimitta until the breaths are gone is confirmed by this poem
Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object
Of a single cognizance;
One knowing not these three ideas
Does not obtain development. [171]
Sign,in-breath, out-breath,
are not object
Of a single cognizance;
One knowing well these three ideas
Can then obtain development.
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
Edit: I tested out the theory I bolded above:
Also I'd like to add that I got to access concentration very quickly with the above tips from the poems, my breath nearly disappeared but I had windows open and I live in a noisy area with loud annoying students and a very busy road with loud trucks. So noise is a huge pain in the ass because when the breath is extremely subtle then noise is a huge distraction. Can't wait to leave this area.
After many hours in jhanas, I despise noise with a passion
And noting at the end of the breath is too strenuous for me so I don't think that's what it means. Perhaps it means either be aware of the breath or the nimitta and stick to one, and not both.The question I have is, is it seems like it's saying you should note (cognizance) at the end of the breath instead of during the breath, so you breath in, note (e.g. long), breath out, note (e.g. short), see my coloring above
Also I'd like to add that I got to access concentration very quickly with the above tips from the poems, my breath nearly disappeared but I had windows open and I live in a noisy area with loud annoying students and a very busy road with loud trucks. So noise is a huge pain in the ass because when the breath is extremely subtle then noise is a huge distraction. Can't wait to leave this area.
- AN 10.72Then the thought occurred to the venerable ones: “These many very well-known Licchavis—racing after one another in auspicious vehicles, making a shrill noise, a great noise—are plunging into the Great Forest to see the Blessed One. Now, the jhānas are said by the Blessed One to be thorned by noise.
What if we were to go to the Gosiṅga Sāla forest park? There we would live comfortably, with next-to-no noise, next-to-no crowding.’ So those venerable ones went to Gosiṅga Sāla forest park. There they are living comfortably, with next-to-no noise, next-to-no crowding.”
“Very good, monks, very good—what those great disciples, rightly declaring, have declared, for the jhānas have been said by me to be thorned by noise.
After many hours in jhanas, I despise noise with a passion
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
There is a difference between: (i) volitionally "chasing" the breath and (ii) the mind non-voliitionally/naturally/automatically experiencing/tracking the sensation of the breath from nose to abdomen. If the meditator "goes in with intention (not mindfulness) chasing after the beginning, middle and end of the in-breath", yes, this is craving, an imperfection & a hindrance to clear cognizance.
I think volitionally "chasing" the breath must be distinguished from non-volitionally "following" the breath. Without "following" the breath, there is little or no vipassana. Stage 3 of Anapanasati must have vipassana because Stage 3 includes the phrase: "He trains himself".
This is also craving, also an imperfection and also a hindrance.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
As far as I remember this means observing different parts of the body: nostrils - beginning, heart area - middle, belly - end (for in-breath, for out-breath is other way around). So, one should focus on one spot.
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
Imo, the imperfection is highlighted in red colour, namely, to "chase" the breath with deliberate active volition or applied thought (rather than merely let the mind be aware of breath in whichever way the breath naturally is). Similar to Budo, you appear to be going from one extreme to another extreme. The mind should not "focus" on any spot. The mind should simply "let go" ("vossagga"), as the Buddha taught in the Anapanasati Sutta.
There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening relying on/by means of seclusion, relying on/by means of dispassion, relying on/by means of cessation, maturing in relinquishment (vossagga).
Anapanasati Sutta
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
Whatever is the case, I think these "imperfections" are imperfections only in the advanced stage of practice, when one gets close to jhāna. For 'ordinary' people it's perfectly fine to follow and chase whatever one wants as long as it helps to stay with the breath and to calm down the mind.
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
The Agama version of Anapanasati uses the nose
“Rāhula, suppose there is a bhikṣu who is happy being alone in quietude. In a secluded place, he corrects his body, corrects his intention, and sits cross-legged. Without any other thoughts, he fastens his mind on the tip of his nose."
https://suttacentral.net/ea17.1/en/pierquet
Re: Wrong way to practice Anapanasati.
Agama have many versions of MN 118 and I only recall reading one that even close slightly close to MN 118 (which said step 3 was experiencing "many types of breath"). Regardless, the Agama are very belated and exhibit historical contemporary views that exhibit a decline in understanding. MN 118 includes the phrase: "experiencing sabba-kaya", explained as follows:
Step 3 is similar in the structure to step 7 (called experiencing citta-sankhara) however step 3 is not called "experiencing kaya-sankhara" (how the breathing conditions the physical body) because it also includes experiencing how the quality of mind conditions the breathing. According to MN 118 and the suttas, there are three kaya: (i) physical body kaya; (ii) breath kaya; & (iii) nama-kaya (mind). To clearly experience the interrelationship between mind, breath & body is the vipassana of step 3.I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body (kaya) among (other) bodies (kaya)....
MN 118
As posted, step 3 must include "training" in higher morality, higher mind (concentration) and higher wisdom. The later day idea found in Agama and Theravada commentaries that "sabba-kaya" means "whole body" or "whole breath" or "beginning-middle-end" of breath reduces step 3 to merely training in concentration.
MN 118 introduces step 3 and each later step with the phrase: "He trains himself". This phrase is not found in steps 1 and 2 because steps 1 and 2 are only training in basic concentration. "He trains himself" must include vipassana (seeing clearly) cause-&-effect and/or the three characteristics.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati