Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
LuisR
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Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by LuisR » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:44 pm

Now that we know the Satipatthana Sutta is not authentic?

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by JamesTheGiant » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:54 pm

Those two techniques are only 70 or so years old. The likelihood is high that they will change or die out or be replaced in the next few thousand years. Everything changes.

SarathW
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:57 pm

Now that we know the Satipatthana Sutta is not authentic?
Any thing is not authentic for a person who lost in category and views.

========
The extract from the book I read now.

There are any number of ways we can analyse our experience; there are a potentially infinite number of categories we can invent into which we can classify our experiences. What is important is that we remember the difference between category and experience, and avoid becoming lost in the category. Our tendency is to get lost in the categories, and in doing so, lose touch with experience. When we create a system of categories we freeze the process of living experience and create a solid something in which our experience must now conform. We now divide our experience into two basic divisions: those experiences which we can fit into our system of categories, and which is therefore valid, real and useful; and those experiences which we cannot fit into our system of categories. Of course, in the act of meditating, we put more attention to our valid, real and useful experiences than we do to the other type. In brief, we become stuck in attachment and aversion, and instead of investigating our experience, we revert to manipulating it. We take the practice of freedom and turn it into a prison. This is inevitably the case when we project reality into the categories of analysis - whatever system we use - and not into the actual, living, stream of experience. Hence we must treat this system with great caution. We must learn to use it, and not be used by it.

http://www.buddhanet.net/knowledg.htm
:reading:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:07 am

Greetings LuisR,
LuisR wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:44 pm
Now that we know the Satipatthana Sutta is not authentic?
What is the basis for this allegation?

:reading:

Frankly, the Goenka and Mahasi methods are only tangentially related to the Satipatthana Sutta anyway... for example, where in the Satipatthana Sutta is there any direct reference to anatta or anicca? In contrast, these concepts and their application are the cornerstones of the Burmese Vipassana traditions and their methods.

I have long thought that the Satipatthana Sutta is actually about something other than that which they think it is...

:stirthepot:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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pitakele
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by pitakele » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:07 am
in the Satipatthana Sutta is there any direct reference to anattā or anicca?
I am not sure if you just mean that the terms anattā and anicca are not mentioned, but certainly the sutta is full of methods to cultivate anattāsaññā e.g.
'Monks, even as a skilled cattle-butcher, or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow, might sit displaying its carcass at the cross-roads, even so, monks, does a monk reflect on this body itself according to how it is placed or disposed in respect of the elements, thinking: ‘In this body there is the element of extension, the element of cohesion, the element of heat, the element of motion.’ https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/horner
and aniccasaññā e.g.
And how, monks, does a monk fare along contemplating mental objects in mental objects from the point of view of the five groups of grasping? Herein, monks, a monk thinks, ‘Such is material shape...consciousness, such is the arising of material shape....consciousness, such is the setting of material shape....consciousness'

-----

'or he fares along contemplating origination-things in the body...mental objects, or he fares along contemplating dissolution-things in the body...mental objects, or he fares along contemplating origination-and-dissolution things in the body...mental objects'

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/horner
now here = nowhere

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retrofuturist
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:40 am

Greetings,
pitakele wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:28 am
I am not sure if you just mean that the terms anattā and anicca are not mentioned, but certainly the sutta is full of methods to cultivate anattāsaññā
More fundamentally IMO, it's a training in the non-fabrication of sankhata-dhamma, which helps develop the understanding that how you frame dhammas determines what dhammas arise, and that this is true however you look at dhammas, whether that be through the frame of reference of body, mind, feeling, mind-objects or the Dhamma itself.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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pitakele
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by pitakele » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:07 am
More fundamentally IMO, it's a training in the non-fabrication of sankhata-dhamma, which helps develop the understanding that how you frame dhammas determines what dhammas arise, and that this is true however you look at dhammas, whether that be through the frame of reference of body, mind, feeling, mind-objects or the Dhamma itself.
I agree somewhat, but would add that training in non-fabrication of sankhata-dhamma naturally leads to penetration of the three characteristics, and eventually, to nibbāna (as per opening para of the sutta.)
now here = nowhere

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retrofuturist
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:06 am

Greetings Pitakele,
pitakele wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:03 am
I agree somewhat, but would add that training in non-fabrication of sankhata-dhamma naturally leads to penetration of the three characteristics, and eventually, to nibbāna (as per opening para of the sutta.)
Agreed. That is the proper order, with the horse before the cart.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

jabalí
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by jabalí » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:49 pm

LuisR wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:44 pm
Now that we know the Satipatthana Sutta is not authentic?
Can you give us a list of fake teachings from the Sutta?

markandeya
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by markandeya » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:43 pm

Some people may not be aware of the history behind the Vipassana movement stemming from Myanmar.

A brief overview.

In the period when colonial imperialist monotheistic aggressor's were in that part of the world, one the tactics they have used throughout history is to first destroy the eyes of the culture. Mostly the eyes were in the monastic institutions and they would lead the society in general.

When Myanmars culture was under threat and the monastic establishment was being bullied and being destroyed Ledi Sayadaw came up with a strategy that the power of the dhamma which was held with the monks and were the protectors of the dhamma was an easy target and if they were toppled then the whole country would become a Christian country and easily come under the full control of Anthropomorphic Monotheistic Materialists. What a mess these warmongers have made to such a beautiful country and is still going on to this day.

So he started to set up free vipassana retreats to everyone, no matter what status they were from, everyone could come for free and learn the dhamma and each person from all parts of the society would then be dhamma vessels and not for it just to be be isolated within Monastic Orders.

Genius

Ledi Sayadaw although was criticized as a scholar was a real dhamma revolutionary :sage:

Alexander____
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by Alexander____ » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:05 pm

It's the same old problem.

The suttas only describe the results of meditation rather than the technique itself be that anapanasati, satipatthana or metta suttas.

So there any number of tehniques that can justify how they are the ones that are in line with the suttas with either some variation in translation or interpretation of these.

The important thing is finding out which techniquest are best for each of us and which bear the fruit which is promised within these suttas.

P.S. Goenka technique is the one true path of course

P.P.S . That's a joke :anjali:

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mikenz66
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:20 pm

Alexander____ wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:05 pm
The suttas only describe the results of meditation rather than the technique itself be that anapanasati, satipatthana or metta suttas.
Which is why I'm always suspicious about statements like: "My technique is from the suttas" or "That technique is not in the suttas".
[Patrick Kearney on Meditation Technique and Marketing.]

I've heard it argued that this lack of technique is helpful, as it gives teachers and practitioners a lot of freedom to figure out what works for them, to bring the results discussed in the suttas... Hence the huge variety of instructions by ancient and modern teachers and commentators on techniques to develop mindfulness, enter jhana, and so on...

Returning to the OP, techniques from teachers such as U Ba Khin/Goenka, Mahasi, etc, take their cue from a variety of suttas (and ancient commentaries), and have been developed according to the experience of many teachers and students, so don't stand or fall on which particular details are included in one or two suttas.

:heart:
Mike

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budo
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by budo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:08 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:20 pm
Alexander____ wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:05 pm
The suttas only describe the results of meditation rather than the technique itself be that anapanasati, satipatthana or metta suttas.
Which is why I'm always suspicious about statements like: "My technique is from the suttas" or "That technique is not in the suttas".
[Patrick Kearney on Meditation Technique and Marketing.]

I've heard it argued that this lack of technique is helpful, as it gives teachers and practitioners a lot of freedom to figure out what works for them, to bring the results discussed in the suttas... Hence the huge variety of instructions by ancient and modern teachers and commentators on techniques to develop mindfulness, enter jhana, and so on...

Returning to the OP, techniques from teachers such as U Ba Khin/Goenka, Mahasi, etc, take their cue from a variety of suttas (and ancient commentaries), and have been developed according to the experience of many teachers and students, so don't stand or fall on which particular details are included in one or two suttas.

:heart:
Mike
Imho it's pretty easy to troubleshoot your own technique, progress and direction. I used to have a notebook and I would write down in it what I changed at the end of every meditation session.

For example,

- Following the breath vs staying at the nose vs "just knowing"
- Posture
- Left leg over right leg, or right leg over left leg
- Focusing on the visual nimmita or moving attention to piti sukha


The way I look at it is that the suttas define the borders, it's pretty clear that you need to be in a quiet area with minimal noise from the suttas. Anything within the border can be tweaked easily.

In one month of daily practice and journaling your experience, a person can easily troubleshoot 80% of their problems. By the end of that month they'll attain access concentration pretty easily, by the end of the second or third month they'll attain first jhana somewhat regularly.

Alexander____
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by Alexander____ » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:16 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:20 pm
Alexander____ wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:05 pm
The suttas only describe the results of meditation rather than the technique itself be that anapanasati, satipatthana or metta suttas.
Which is why I'm always suspicious about statements like: "My technique is from the suttas" or "That technique is not in the suttas".
[Patrick Kearney on Meditation Technique and Marketing.]
That link doesn't work anymore. Do you have one for the talk itself?

Thanks...

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mikenz66
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Re: Will Goenka and Mahasi traditions change...

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:35 pm

Alexander____ wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:16 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:20 pm
Alexander____ wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:05 pm
The suttas only describe the results of meditation rather than the technique itself be that anapanasati, satipatthana or metta suttas.
Which is why I'm always suspicious about statements like: "My technique is from the suttas" or "That technique is not in the suttas".
[Patrick Kearney on Meditation Technique and Marketing.]
That link doesn't work anymore. Do you have one for the talk itself?

Thanks...
That particular retreat is no longer on-line. However, the introductory talks to each retreat are similar:
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/audio.html

:heart:
Mike

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