What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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SarathW
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What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:09 pm

What is the difference between Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?
What is Citta?
What is Dhamma?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:43 am

Difficult to answer per MN 10 but easy to answer per MN 118.

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:30 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:09 pm
What is the difference between Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?
To put it rather crudely, I think the first is basically noticing one's state of mind, while the second is noticing the nature of one's experience generally, using various frameworks.
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:08 pm

To put it rather crudely, I think the first is basically noticing one's state of mind, while the second is noticing the nature of one's experience generally, using various frameworks.
I think it is the other way around.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:01 pm

If I am cold and have fear is it Citta or Dhamma?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

rightviewftw
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:04 pm

i'd say Dhammanupassana refers to considering certain phenomena of strategic importance in light of the teachings whilst Cittanupassana refers to appropriate attention and awareness of the mind and mindstates in particular.
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:01 pm
If I am cold and have fear is it Citta or Dhamma?
There is a lot of overlap
For example the experience of feeling cold can be payed attention to in several ways there is the factor of Vedananupassana fulfilled because it is a feeling, there is Kayanupassana because it is a bodily feeling, there can be Cittanupassana with Aversion if it is unpleasant and it can be Dhammanupassana if contemplated in terms of ie the Hindrances, Sense Base or Suffering etc
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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mikenz66
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:57 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:30 am
To put it rather crudely, I think the first is basically noticing one's state of mind, while the second is noticing the nature of one's experience generally, using various frameworks.
I think that's a good summary. If you read the sutta, cittanupassana could be roughly translated as "mood".
It’s when a mendicant knows mind with greed as ‘mind with greed,’ and mind without greed as ‘mind without greed.’ They know mind with hate as ‘mind with hate,’ and mind without hate as ‘mind without hate.’ ...
https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato#sc39
As for dhammanupassana, it is variously translated a principles or phenomena, but does really contain essentailly anything.

One way of thinking about the four areas of mindfulness is that the first three are basically about building up concentration and mindfulness on aspects that go from gross to subtle. The fourth area is about insight into dynamics, understanding, and development.
When they have dullness and drowsiness in them, they understand: ‘I have dullness and drowsiness in me.’ When they don’t have dullness and drowsiness in them, they understand: ‘I don’t have dullness and drowsiness in me.’ They understand how dullness and drowsiness arise; how, when they’ve already arisen, they’re given up; and how, once they’re given up, they don’t arise again in the future.
https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato#sc59
Of course, different teachers and practitioners approach these areas in different ways. Some techniques (such as Goenka) go after particular aspects, others (like Mahasi) work towards being aware of whatever arises, without worrying so much about how to classify those experiences.

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:22 pm

To me, it looks like contemplation on Dhamma means contemplation on Buddha's teaching.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:32 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:22 pm
To me, it looks like contemplation on Dhamma means contemplation on Buddha's teaching.
Yes, that's one way of interpreting it, but it is also about observing and developing (in the case of the factors of awakening) or abandoning (in the case of the hindrances) aspects of mind, as in the quote I gave above.

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:32 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:04 pm
i'd say Dhammanupassana refers to considering certain phenomena of strategic importance in light of the teachings....
Well, the suttas appear to only use the word 'Dhamma' once in the teachings, i.e., in "Dhammanupassana". So similar to deciding with wisdom what the Pali word "Dhamma" means in AN 10.58; what its the bottom line here? If you had to place a bet, which translation would you choose? What does the Pali word "dhamma" mean in "Dhammanupassana"? Does it mean:

1. Phenomena (mind objects)?

or

2. The Teachings (of Truth)?

:juggling:
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:22 pm
To me, it looks like contemplation on Dhamma means contemplation on Buddha's teaching.
:spy:
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:32 pm
it is also about observing and developing (in the case of the factors of awakening) or abandoning (in the case of the hindrances) aspects of mind, as in the quote I gave above.
Why would the Buddha teach abandoning the hindrances in the 4th Satipatthana (when it is generally taught as a preliminary to the 1st Satipatthana)?

:shrug:
Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness & alertness, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a wilderness, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a forest grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore.

Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will & anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will & anger. Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness & anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness & anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.

MN 38

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:45 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:22 pm
To me, it looks like contemplation on Dhamma means contemplation on Buddha's teaching.
Some explain it as mindfulness of the teachings, i think it clearly encompases aspects of keeping the teachings in mind, reflecting on one's experience in light of the teachings and contemplating the teachings.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:54 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:32 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:04 pm
i'd say Dhammanupassana refers to considering certain phenomena of strategic importance in light of the teachings....
Well, the suttas appear to only use the word 'Dhamma' once in the teachings, i.e., in "Dhammanupassana". So similar to deciding with wisdom what the Pali word "Dhamma" means in AN 10.58; what its the bottom line here? If you had to place a bet, which translation would you choose? What does the Pali word "dhamma" mean in "Dhammanupassana"? Does it mean:

1. Phenomena (mind objects)?

or

2. The Teachings (of Truth)?
ie when one feels rapture which would be an arisen phenomena one could discern it as a factor of awakening and think about the development of that factor.
There is the case where, there being mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is present within me.' Or, there being no mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is not present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen mindfulness as a factor for Awakening. And he discerns how there is the culmination of the development of mindfulness as a factor for Awakening once it has arisen. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining factors for Awakening: analysis of qualities, persistence, rapture, serenity, concentration, & equanimity.)
Mindfulness of Teachings is the preferred translation imo.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:34 pm

Mindfulness of Teachings is the preferred translation imo.
The problem here is these Dhammas not a monopoly of Buddha.
He just re-discovered it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:57 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:32 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:32 pm
it is also about observing and developing (in the case of the factors of awakening) or abandoning (in the case of the hindrances) aspects of mind, as in the quote I gave above.
Why would the Buddha teach abandoning the hindrances in the 4th Satipatthana (when it is generally taught as a preliminary to the 1st Satipatthana)?

:shrug:
Take it up with the Buddha... :alien:

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rightviewftw
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:36 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:34 pm
Mindfulness of Teachings is the preferred translation imo.
The problem here is these Dhammas not a monopoly of Buddha.
He just re-discovered it.
I don't see a problem there. It is the teaching of the Buddhas.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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