Transition from shamatha to vipassana

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Viachh
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Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by Viachh » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:56 am

How technically is there a transition from shamatha to vipassana during the practice of conscious breathing?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:24 am

Viachh wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:56 am
How technically is there a transition from shamatha to vipassana during the practice of conscious breathing?
Hi friend, it is not clear what you mean by transitioning during the practice.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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DooDoot
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:29 am

If the mind can clearly see each in & out breath is impermanent; this is vipassana (seeing annica).

Also if the mind can clearly see a certain quality of mind results in the breathing, body & mind becoming calm; this is also vipassana (seeing cause & effect and inter-relatedness).

If the mind can clearly see the body breathes by itself rather than the 'self' breathes, this is also vipassana (seeing anatta).

Viachh
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by Viachh » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:13 am

Is it possible to compare the transition from samatha to vipassana as the transfer of an attention gravity center from making steps (awareness of breathing) to the landscape (more precisely to the quality of the landscape structure ) that opens as a result of taking steps? (and the very making of steps will be a part of the opening landscape)

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rightviewftw
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:20 am

I will quote from the Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw's Manual of Insight;
For example, it is incorrect to say that the observation of the in- and out-breath can only be used for tranquility (samatha) but not for insight (vipassanā).
...
The only difference is that observation of the conceptual form of the breath produces tranquility, while attention to its touch and movement produces insight. This is why, in the Ānāpānasati Sutta, the Buddha says: I say that this is a certain body among the bodies, namely in breathing and out-breathing (assāsapassāsa). This statement indicates that the breath is not merely a concept but is something that ultimately exists and can be empirically experienced. According to the commentary, the in- and out-breath is a manifestation of the air element that is one of four empirical physical bodies or dimensions:
earth, water, fire, and air. It is also associated with the dimension of air pressure, a tangible sense base (photthabbāyatana) in the model that enumerates twenty-five physical bodies. This enumeration of twenty-five is found in the commentaries to the Mahāgopālaka Sutta contained in the Mūlapaṇṇāsa section of the Majjhima Nikāya, and in the Aṅguttara Nikāya
...
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

Dinsdale
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:31 am

Viachh wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:56 am
How technically is there a transition from shamatha to vipassana during the practice of conscious breathing?
You might find it helpful to look at the four tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta, which describes a progression from tranquillity to insight.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

It's a topic we've discussed here previously, so a quick search might be useful.
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chris87
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by chris87 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:05 am

Without Vipassana I do not think you can accomplish true Shamatha. Because if you do not have Vipassana, which is required to gain the wisdom realizing renunciation of samsara, bodhicitta, shunyata, and the ability to work with the subtle mind then who is meditating in Shamatha? Which mind is meditating? I think it would be the gross/coarse mind. Isn't it? There still lies attachment and conceptual ego views. This would mean what you are meditating on in this coarse Shamatha meditation is still deluded by the coarse ego mind. To truly achieve Shamatha we must be meditating with the subtle mind. No Vipassana no Shamatha. Know Vipassana know Shamatha.

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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by paul » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:34 am

Viachh wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:13 am
Is it possible to compare the transition from samatha to vipassana as the transfer of an attention gravity center from making steps (awareness of breathing) to the landscape (more precisely to the quality of the landscape structure )

Both the breath and the landscape are based on rhythm and the cycle (or rhythm) of birth, maturity, decline and death is the hallmark of samsara, differentiating it from nibbana. The awareness of cycles can be used either to calm or to generate insight. How a practitioner uses them depends on the state of their mind. Sometimes it is necessary to calm the mind when it is agitated, at other times the mind is calm and a suitable ground to practise insight. Both skills should be developed in a balanced way, but it was the insight into impermanence that caused the Buddha to abandon the home life and undertake the path to enlightenment.

SarathW
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:53 am

If the mind can clearly see the body breathes by itself
I do not think the body can breathe by itself.
Without mind no breathing.
I may be wrong.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:58 am

It is important to note what Ven Sudassana's comment.
He said Jhana eliminate the Upaddana as follows.
Samath - eliminate Kama Upadana and Silabbatha Upadana
Vipassana eliminates - Atta Uppadana and Dithi Upadana

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up%C4%81d%C4%81na
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Dmytro
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by Dmytro » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:57 am

Viachh wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:56 am
How technically is there a transition from shamatha to vipassana during the practice of conscious breathing?
Ven. Dhammajiva describes this in his book "In This Life Itself", page 23 ff, and in his book "A Mind Revealed", page 18 ff:

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/dha ... /index.php

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:20 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:53 am
If the mind can clearly see the body breathes by itself
I do not think the body can breathe by itself.
Without mind no breathing.
I may be wrong.
Depends what you mean. Unconscious people still breathe, but there is arguably some 'level' of mind still operating in an unconscious person.

It can be hard to say where the 'mind' finishes, and the autonomic nervous system begins.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

SarathW
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:28 am

Depends what you mean.
- Dead people do not breath
- Fourth Jhana breath ceases
- No breath when you are in Nirodha Samaptti.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:51 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:28 am
Depends what you mean.
- Dead people do not breath
- Fourth Jhana breath ceases
- No breath when you are in Nirodha Samaptti.
:shrug:
Only two of those are actually true.

People still respire in deep meditation - otherwise they would die.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

SarathW
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Re: Transition from shamatha to vipassana

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:20 am

People still respire in deep meditation - otherwise they would die.
I like to keep my options open until I get there.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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