What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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SDC
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by SDC » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:42 pm
Do you agree or disagree with the above?

Comments? Questions? etc.
So a few uses of "arising" are being used in Ven. Nanananda's passage:

samudaya: rise, origin, produce

uppāda: an unusual or startling event, coming into being, appearance; production

In the below sutta (which I know I quote a lot) we see uppāda and also paññāyittha, which means "to be perceived, seen or taken for, to appear".

We would first have to agree that these three terms are hovering around the same idea, and that since we see these terms all associated with descriptions of the aggregates, in the very least they can all be applied to the nature of the aggregates in some way. Maybe not in the exact same way, but they are close.
SN 22.38" wrote:"What are these things of which and arising is manifest, a ceasing is manifest, a change while standing is manifest?"
As the sutta goes on to say, and as Ven. Nanananda points out in the passage, the answer is the five aggregates, but if we back up and look at the first line, "...arising is manifest, ceasing is...", it is another way of saying an arising has appeared, ceasing has appeared.... That "manifestation" seems to be a more general way of categorizing the appearance of these different natures, distinct from the natures themselves. So it would seem that appearance is what arises, and is a more general view than the particular aggregate in question, i.e. to appear is the nature of the aggregates and whether or not they are doing so as arising, ceasing or persisting-while-changing does not alter that most general nature which is to manifest.

This surely complicates the common notion that experience is a simple arising and ceasing of things all the time. The ability to observe that nature, i.e. seeing would have to be enduring throughout the arising and ceasing in order to call a spade a spade. So there is more to it than just those two movements.

With that, and to answer your question, I'll put it this way (imo of course): the appearance of the aggregates in these different states is what arises. They are not just coming and going, but indeed they are changing, or rather they are - according to SN 22.38 - growing in one sense, decaying in another and in yet another they are enduring . They are "heaps" and they accumulate layers (even layers that mark a deterioration of that accumulation). But most importantly (and it all that really matters), they arise in a state of being clung to (upādānakkhandha), they arise as mine, belonging to me ---- already in that state. In satipaṭṭhāna, there is a heavy emphasis on the presence of "I am doing..." in every contemplation. And if you look at MN 10 for instance, through every mindfulness contemplation: in general it starts out with "I am doing" and then comes to a close with something along the lines of "There is body" "There is feeling". The repeated mindfulness has cleared that present "I" and separated it out of the picture where it once dominated. (cf. Ven. N. Nanamoli, Notes on Meditation).

So I see no reason why vipassanā would not just follow suit, considering how it extends from satipatthana. The goal is to find that separation between experience with "I am" and experience without it. And the condition that the aggregates are in is critical to that insight.

Jeez I hope a came in clear, can't tell at this point. Too tired. :lol:

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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by pegembara » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:25 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:32 am
But what is "arising", and what is it that is arising...?
Dukkha.
Dukkha ceases when sankhara ceases.

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by pegembara » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:53 am
Greetings,
pegembara wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:32 am
Basically these are mind creations. They don't inherently exist - emptiness in forms.
Ditto with any and all sankharas... I'm just trying to work out why you think some are more foundational. You seem to be prioritizing form over name, as if the two can be separated and sequenced according your prioritization.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Consider this-

Something is experienced. That is categorised as sound(I hear ...). That is identified as voice/siren/noise etc. Then follows commentary(papanca) which is almost entirely mind made. A piece of paper becomes money, a branch becomes a club, sounds become hurtful words etc.

The world delights in conceptual proliferation (papanca).
Buddhas delight in the ending of that (nippapanca).
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:22 am

SDC wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:17 am
This surely complicates the common notion that experience is a simple arising and ceasing of things all the time.
Perhaps, but I think that this observation is a good starting point because it demonstrates the truth of anicca and related to this, the truth of dukkha. The next step is to understand the conditionality of these arisings, the how and the why - these observations give some insight into the workings of DO, and the significance of anatta.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:23 am

pegembara wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:25 am
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:32 am
But what is "arising", and what is it that is arising...?
Dukkha.
Dukkha ceases when sankhara ceases.
Which sankharas exactly?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

pegembara
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by pegembara » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:26 am

The world arises. All that is experienced.

Dukkha ceases when experiences or appearances are seen as they are and no longer clung to. On parinibbana, they stop arising.
"Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

"The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame...

"The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame...

"The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame...

"The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame...

"The intellect is aflame. Ideas are aflame. Consciousness at the intellect is aflame. Contact at the intellect is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by SDC » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:13 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:22 am
SDC wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:17 am
This surely complicates the common notion that experience is a simple arising and ceasing of things all the time.
Perhaps, but I think that this observation is a good starting point because it demonstrates the truth of anicca and related to this, the truth of dukkha. The next step is to understand the conditionality of these arisings, the how and the why - these observations give some insight into the workings of DO, and the significance of anatta.
I wouldn't go as far as to say it demonstrates the truth (though I think I know what you mean). That both arising and ceasing could be the nature of things is really all that can be inferred with this information. That nature is surely not seen holistically - at most one is testing its applicability in contemplation by seeing whether or not reality imitates the idea. This is where I am a fierce proponent of making sure the cart is not put before the horse. The concepts of impermanence and not-self cannot be grasped in any real sense until they have been thoroughly worn down. See AN 4.49: a distortion in the mind of the non-ariya is the taking of that which is not-self as self, and the tipping of the scale in the other direction - taking what is not-self as not-self in that most general sense - isn't a mere decision to be made. Sure you can believe it to be the way things are, but until the distortion is cleared, it is only mere belief.

That is why I exercise a ton of caution and am sure to remember that agreement with an idea is not at all the same as knowing it to be true. With that, I do the reverse of what you said: I contemplate that nature with the goal of understanding whether or not it is the truth, not the other way around. That may seem like an unnecessary nuance, but if that nature was readily available, if it demonstrated the truth, we'd all be arahats with the snap of a finger. But what I think AN 4.49 beautifully emphasizes is that it is very natural to grapple with an idea and believe it while safely within the realm of self-view and the conceit "I am". Though with such confines, any understanding is limited in its scope and profundity, i.e. it cannot be applied holistically because it hasn't pervaded that overall notion of self. Again, if it could we'd all be arahats. Just saying that I start with the possibility and I make sure not to mistake that possibility for knowledge. Because when I do, I find myself bound to its limits, and those limits are none other than that I am imagining these things while in a state of ignorance; an ignorance that can't just be forgotten - it must be worn down like the handle of the carpenter's adze in SN 22.101.

Back to the OP: how a thing appears says much about what is already understood about it. Which is to say, it arises with the implication of a background state of affairs that support it. Something which is also determined by just how much or how little one is ignorant in regard to its nature, i.e. of the knowledge that determines how a thing appears (avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā). So really what arises is a state of knowledge about the arisen nature of things in general, and the practice seems to be to see the extent of that nature more and more each time. Back to my satipatthana example: repeating the contemplation to the extent necessary that the knowledge "There is [such and such]" separate from the notion that "I am that [such and such]" or "I am doing [such and such] - whether it be in regards to body, feelings, mind states or things themselves.

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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:13 am

SDC wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:13 pm
The concepts of impermanence and not-self cannot be grasped in any real sense until they have been thoroughly worn down. See AN 4.49: a distortion in the mind of the non-ariya is the taking of that which is not-self as self, and the tipping of the scale in the other direction - taking what is not-self as not-self in that most general sense - isn't a mere decision to be made. Sure you can believe it to be the way things are, but until the distortion is cleared, it is only mere belief.
I'd certainly agree that the three marks are not beliefs to be taken on, they are more like pointers, or theories to be examined. It's more like a gradual realisation, based on consistent observation, a consistent noticing - combined with a willingness to challenge our assumptions about the nature of experience.
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:09 pm

Off-topic posts moved here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=32289

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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:10 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:09 pm
Off-topic posts moved here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=32289

:heart:
Mike
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Buddha save me from new-agers!

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