Dukkha

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
befriend
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Dukkha

Post by befriend » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:33 am

When I'm doing vipassana meditation for me it is just watching everything in my experience arise be and cease like watch my thoughts pass then if a feeling comes up I'll be aware of its shelf life, but then I get a feeling of impermanence Because I'm seeing everything change then I get the feeling or cognition that nothing is worth clinging to there is no happiness anywhere and I get this disgust for my experience or existence. Is this a correct view or some kind of distortion of insight?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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bodom
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Re: Dukkha

Post by bodom » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:42 am

Keep watching to see that the disgust is also impermanent and then there's no problem.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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dylanj
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Re: Dukkha

Post by dylanj » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:52 am

That's a correct view.

"Nothing but suffering arises, nothing but suffering ceases"
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Dukkha

Post by JohnK » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:21 pm

befriend wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:33 am
When I'm doing vipassana meditation for me it is just watching everything in my experience arise be and cease like watch my thoughts pass then if a feeling comes up I'll be aware of its shelf life, but then I get a feeling of impermanence Because I'm seeing everything change then I get the feeling or cognition that nothing is worth clinging to there is no happiness anywhere and I get this disgust for my experience or existence. Is this a correct view or some kind of distortion of insight?
You may be familiar with this (Transcendental Dependent Arising by Bhikkhu Bodhi) already; well worth a full (or re) read:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... l277.html
And some quote from it on Nibbida (sometimes translated as disgust):
Disenchantment (Nibbida)

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment": As the yogin contemplates the rise and fall of the five aggregates, his attention becomes riveted to the final phase of the process, their dissolution and passing away. This insight into the instability of the aggregates at the same time reveals their basic unreliability. Far from being the ground of satisfaction we unreflectively take them to be, conditioned things are seen to be fraught with peril when adhered to with craving and wrong views. The growing realization of this fundamental insecurity brings a marked transformation in the mind's orientation towards conditioned existence. Whereas previously the mind was drawn to the world by the lure of promised gratification, now, with the exposure of the underlying danger, it draws away in the direction of a disengagement. This inward turning away from the procession of formations is called nibbida. Though some times translated "disgust" or "aversion," the term suggests, not emotional repugnance, but a conscious act of detachment resulting from a profound noetic discovery. Nibbida signifies in short, the serene, dignified withdrawal from phenomena which supervenes when the illusion of their permanence, pleasure, and selfhood has been shattered by the light of correct knowledge and vision of things as they are. The commentaries explain nibbida as powerful insight (balava vipassana), an explanation consonant with the word's literal meaning of "finding out." It indicates the sequel to the discoveries unveiled by that contemplative process, the mind's appropriate response to the realizations thrust upon it by the growing experiences of insight. Buddhaghosa compares it to the revulsion a man would feel who, having grabbed bold of a snake in the belief it was a fish, would look at it closely and suddenly realize he was holding a snake.[23]
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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Stiphan
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Re: Dukkha

Post by Stiphan » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:56 pm

I think that's supposed to happen. What you mean by "disgust" might also be rendered "revulsion" or "disenchantment", nibbidā. If you see this page which provides translations for nibbidā, it also mentions "disgust with worldly life." In vipassanā it's one of the sixteen stages, and it refers to revulsion towards the five aggregates or the six sense bases. In this link, it literally says: "The meditator experiences negative, irritable feelings." when talking about the preceding stage of ādīnava ñāṇa.

Edit: Just saw that John above has already explained it in the same way.

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Re: Dukkha

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:12 am

JohnK wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:21 pm
befriend wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:33 am
When I'm doing vipassana meditation for me it is just watching everything in my experience arise be and cease like watch my thoughts pass then if a feeling comes up I'll be aware of its shelf life, but then I get a feeling of impermanence Because I'm seeing everything change then I get the feeling or cognition that nothing is worth clinging to there is no happiness anywhere and I get this disgust for my experience or existence. Is this a correct view or some kind of distortion of insight?
You may be familiar with this (Transcendental Dependent Arising by Bhikkhu Bodhi) already; well worth a full (or re) read:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... l277.html
And some quote from it on Nibbida (sometimes translated as disgust):
Disenchantment (Nibbida)

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment": As the yogin contemplates the rise and fall of the five aggregates, his attention becomes riveted to the final phase of the process, their dissolution and passing away. This insight into the instability of the aggregates at the same time reveals their basic unreliability. Far from being the ground of satisfaction we unreflectively take them to be, conditioned things are seen to be fraught with peril when adhered to with craving and wrong views. The growing realization of this fundamental insecurity brings a marked transformation in the mind's orientation towards conditioned existence. Whereas previously the mind was drawn to the world by the lure of promised gratification, now, with the exposure of the underlying danger, it draws away in the direction of a disengagement. This inward turning away from the procession of formations is called nibbida. Though some times translated "disgust" or "aversion," the term suggests, not emotional repugnance, but a conscious act of detachment resulting from a profound noetic discovery. Nibbida signifies in short, the serene, dignified withdrawal from phenomena which supervenes when the illusion of their permanence, pleasure, and selfhood has been shattered by the light of correct knowledge and vision of things as they are. The commentaries explain nibbida as powerful insight (balava vipassana), an explanation consonant with the word's literal meaning of "finding out." It indicates the sequel to the discoveries unveiled by that contemplative process, the mind's appropriate response to the realizations thrust upon it by the growing experiences of insight. Buddhaghosa compares it to the revulsion a man would feel who, having grabbed bold of a snake in the belief it was a fish, would look at it closely and suddenly realize he was holding a snake.[23]
Who am I to challenge the illustrious Bhikkhu Bodhi, but I find that he has this backwards. 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' is liberation, not condition of disenchantment. Disenchantment, dispassion is condition for letting go, cessation. You only see things the way they are after nirodha.

Perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi meant something other than seeing things the way they are as the Buddha actually described it as synonymous with nibbana or nibbana as condition in a transcendental way. Thoughts?

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Re: Dukkha

Post by freedom » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:37 am

befriend wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:33 am
When I'm doing vipassana meditation for me it is just watching everything in my experience arise be and cease like watch my thoughts pass then if a feeling comes up I'll be aware of its shelf life, but then I get a feeling of impermanence Because I'm seeing everything change then I get the feeling or cognition that nothing is worth clinging to there is no happiness anywhere and I get this disgust for my experience or existence. Is this a correct view or some kind of distortion of insight?
If you extend this vipassana "watching" to all of your daily experiences such as "your money, your house, your children, your job, your spouse, your parents, your best friends, your cars..." then you will start understanding dukkha.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: Dukkha

Post by JohnK » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:38 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:12 am
Perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi meant something other than seeing things the way they are as the Buddha actually described it as synonymous with nibbana or nibbana as condition in a transcendental way. Thoughts?
Yes, a look at the full article (linked to above) shows that, according to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the "knowledeg and vision" referred to in the sutta is insight knowledge, not some final knowledge of nibbana. In the section on knowledge and vision, he says:
The material upon which insight works is precisely the sphere where ignorance is concealed, our own psycho-physical experience. Its method is the application of mindfulness or discerning awareness to this sphere without interruption and in all activities.

In the discourse the Buddha states that what must be known and seen as they are is the five aggregates — their nature, their arising, and their passing away.
So this particular knowledge and vision is a significant step along the way to liberation. Here are the steps:
Faith (saddha)
Joy (pamojja)
Rapture (piti)
Tranquillity (passaddhi)
Happiness (sukha)
Concentration (samadhi)
Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)
Disenchantment (nibbida)
Dispassion (viraga)
Emancipation (vimutti)
Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana)
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

Saengnapha
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Re: Dukkha

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:25 am

JohnK wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:38 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:12 am
Perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi meant something other than seeing things the way they are as the Buddha actually described it as synonymous with nibbana or nibbana as condition in a transcendental way. Thoughts?
Yes, a look at the full article (linked to above) shows that, according to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the "knowledeg and vision" referred to in the sutta is insight knowledge, not some final knowledge of nibbana. In the section on knowledge and vision, he says:
The material upon which insight works is precisely the sphere where ignorance is concealed, our own psycho-physical experience. Its method is the application of mindfulness or discerning awareness to this sphere without interruption and in all activities.

In the discourse the Buddha states that what must be known and seen as they are is the five aggregates — their nature, their arising, and their passing away.
So this particular knowledge and vision is a significant step along the way to liberation. Here are the steps:
Faith (saddha)
Joy (pamojja)
Rapture (piti)
Tranquillity (passaddhi)
Happiness (sukha)
Concentration (samadhi)
Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)
Disenchantment (nibbida)
Dispassion (viraga)
Emancipation (vimutti)
Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana)
Once again, none of this is 'seeing things the way they are'. I hope you can discern what I'm referring to. BB is simply mistaken. The Buddha was not.

I wanted to add that the confusion may be linked to what BB calls knowledge. He places this category after samadhi. But samadhi, 4th jhana, is still not real vijja which seems to only take place after emancipation. I checked with Payutto and he does the same as BB according to how they explain DO. But, I still feel that this description is misleading about how vijja and seeing things the way they are are explained. Again, these are the pitfalls of orthodox Theravada and its linear adherence to the 'path'.
Last edited by Saengnapha on Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Dukkha

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:31 am

Within the Buddhist sutras, dukkha is divided in three categories:

Dukkha-dukkha, the dukkha of painful experiences. This includes the physical and mental sufferings of birth, aging, illness, dying; distress from what is not desirable.

Viparinama-dukkha, the dukkha of the changing nature of all things. This includes the frustration of not getting what you want.

Sankhara-dukkha, the dukkha of conditioned experience. This includes "a basic unsatisfactoriness pervading all existence, all forms of life, because all forms of life are changing, impermanent and without any inner core or substance."[web 1] On this level, the term indicates a lack of satisfaction, a sense that things never measure up to our expectations or standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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Re: Dukkha

Post by JohnK » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:58 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:25 am
Once again, none of this is 'seeing things the way they are'. I hope you can discern what I'm referring to. BB is simply mistaken. The Buddha was not...
Just to clarify, in this context, BB is discussing the Upanisa Sutta where the progression was laid out -- presumably by the Buddha not by BB.
(For reference, the sutta is included in the BB exposition I linked.)
It may be useful to note that in this sutta, the Pali word translated as "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" is "yathabhutañanadassana" (so maybe it's the translation that is creating an appearance of inconsistency).
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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Re: Dukkha

Post by auto » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:59 pm

Also can you notice that you can be more aware and less aware and then also what affects awareness to do so. You can make the senses more bright or more dull. That is also noticing.

In short you might be stuck with looking for sensation what are happening on the surface of skin how the breath feels when touching the nose. You can affect the sense organs from within. Also you can watch through eyes into environment and notice that its what you see is eye consciousness, not the real world standing there.
So that the characteristics of nature will arise and you notice them.

edit: got fiery sensation when thinking about i was off topic again. I don't note it separately, i just noticed it that there is this feeling and i'm about to extinguish it. And im doing it by confessing it here with a edit.

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Re: Dukkha

Post by befriend » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:28 pm

I just had an insight about impermanence. I was paying attention to classical music playing for about ten minutes and again the feeling of disgust and that experience is a dart, alien etc.. Came up then I kept listening to the music and the fact that everything is impermanent isn't bad it's actually good because if everything is impermanent nothing can affect us. Any thoughts about this?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Dukkha

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:27 pm

befriend wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:28 pm
I just had an insight about impermanence. I was paying attention to classical music playing for about ten minutes and again the feeling of disgust and that experience is a dart, alien etc.. Came up then I kept listening to the music and the fact that everything is impermanent isn't bad it's actually good because if everything is impermanent nothing can affect us. Any thoughts about this?
It's very difficult to evaluate the insights gained by other people, but I would be wary about this particular formulation. Things (maybe everything) may be impermanent, but I'm still affected by something. The virus I recently hosted in my upper respiratory tract, for example, was certainly impermanent - it's gone - but it seemed to affect me quite badly. It might be that the importance of being affected is lessened by the idea that nothing is permanent, of course, in that what is affected is not permanent either.

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Re: Dukkha

Post by JohnK » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:50 pm

befriend wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:28 pm
...if everything is impermanent nothing can affect us. Any thoughts about this?
My understanding: Recognizing that everything is impermanent helps us not be affected by them -- in the sense of not reacting to contact with grasping (becoming, dukkha).
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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