Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:55 amIt is a limited pov, unsatisfying. It is still a samsaric vision.

There might be a different word for that other than vipassana.

DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:22 am

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 amThe ideas put forth are from Punnaji's talks on Beyond the 4 Jhanas:Arupa Samadhi, Nirodha Samapatti, and Paticca-Samupadda. They seem quite clear to me and describe what he calls the 2 ways of awakening from the dream of existence. Within one of the talks, he describes what he called the Buddha's 'shortcut'. They are worth anyone's time to listen to as he is one of the few people who are talking about the actual awakening.

This seems to be Punnaji's personal idea. It seems the idea of the Pali suttas is the neutral basis of awakening from the dream of ego existence is the void/luminous mind (pabhassara citta) rather than the ending/absence of mind.

The Continuation of the Round

On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

The Ending of the Round: Full Cessation

On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn38

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:15 amVipassana is usually translated as insight. The Buddha's reference to 'seeing things the way they are' was his awakening to dependent origination, paticca-samupadda, and the clear comprehension of how the world, self, and suffering, are created. This is cessation, nibbana. It is supramundane and is not the same as what most call insight in their daily life.

The ending of 'the world' (which is a synonym for 'self' & 'suffering') does not require the ending of mind, according to the Pali suttas. To quote:

And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

Punnaji insists that the original meaning of much of Buddhism has been obscured through the ages. This also tallys with my friend UG's comments about his own 'awakening' and how he functioned. Believe what you want as it's all part of the dream, na?

L.N. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:59 am

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:55 amIt is a limited pov, unsatisfying. It is still a samsaric vision.

There might be a different word for that other than vipassana.

I think as long as one feels there is a doer, or having an insight, or any kind of activity of becoming, it is samsaric and part of one's dream.

Dharmasherab wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:53 amDoes any one know of resources on these alternate forms of Vipassana?

Jack Kornfield's Living Buddhist Masters is available from archive.org, link.
The relevant chapters for dry insight are those on all of the sayādaws in the book, plus U Ba Khin and Ajahn Naeb.

Other resources for the Bhaddanta U Vilāsa / Ajahn Naeb method:

Frank Tullius, Vipassanā Bhāvanā
James Baraz, Ajahn Naeb (audio)
Ajahn Naeb, How Did I Start to Practice?

Ajahn Prani Samreungrat

Just to mention Mahasati here also known as Dynamic Meditation...a Thai innovation.
http://www.mahasati.org/learn_to_medita ... chor703866

Then there is Tejaniya Sayadaw/Shwe Oo Min Sayadaw who teaches a form of Cittanubhavana.
http://ashintejaniya.org/

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 amPunnaji insists that the original meaning of much of Buddhism has been obscured through the ages.

I think the suttas i quoted are fine (unobscured) because how can there be any enlightenment & wisdom without mind? These sutta emphasis the non-arising of craving & becoming rather than the non-arising of consciousness.

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 amThis also tallys with my friend UG's comments about his own 'awakening' and how he functioned. Believe what you want as it's all part of the dream, na?

The 'dream' metaphor sounds OK to me. Consciousness & objects are certainly described as a dream or "magicians illusion" (SN 22.95). Its just the ending of mind part & emphasis on Nirodha Samapatti that the Pali suttas do not emphasise. Nirodha Samapatti is a natural but unnecessary development according to the suttas. There is only a few suttas that describe a path via Nirodha Samapatti because these suttas are probably validating this path, despite is non-necessity.

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:18 am Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the unique discovery of the Buddha was his teaching of paticca-samupadda.

This stereotype text is found in many suttas, for example M 4, 6 ,77:

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’

Referred to is the sixth ‘higher power’, the only supra mundane one, attainable through penetrating insight (vipassana), the extinction of all cankers. From this knowledge arose the four noble truths.
It is this sixth higher power that distinguishes Buddhism from Hinduism, where jhana results in suppression of the hindrances, but no attempt is made to eradicate them entirely. It was this that the Buddha found unsatisfying and which caused him to move on from his teachers and establish his own path leading to complete emancipation.

paul wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:50 am

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:18 am Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the unique discovery of the Buddha was his teaching of paticca-samupadda.

This stereotype text is found in many suttas, for example M 4, 6 ,77:

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’

Referred to is the sixth ‘higher power’, the only supra mundane one, attainable through penetrating insight (vipassana), the extinction of all cankers. From this knowledge arose the four noble truths.
It is this sixth higher power that distinguishes Buddhism from Hinduism, where jhana results in suppression of the hindrances, but no attempt is made to eradicate them entirely. It was this that the Buddha found unsatisfying and which caused him to move on from his teachers and establish his own path.

Have you taken a look at the videos I posted of Punnaji talking about what I mentioned?

DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:28 am

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 amPunnaji insists that the original meaning of much of Buddhism has been obscured through the ages.

I think the suttas i quoted are fine (unobscured) because how can there be any enlightenment & wisdom without mind? These sutta emphasis the non-arising of craving & becoming rather than the non-arising of consciousness.

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 amThis also tallys with my friend UG's comments about his own 'awakening' and how he functioned. Believe what you want as it's all part of the dream, na?

The 'dream' metaphor sounds OK to me. Consciousness & objects are certainly described as a dream or "magicians illusion" (SN 22.95). Its just the ending of mind part & emphasis on Nirodha Samapatti that the Pali suttas do not emphasise. Nirodha Samapatti is a natural but unnecessary development according to the suttas. There is only a few suttas that describe a path via Nirodha Samapatti because these suttas are probably validating this path, despite is non-necessity.

I can only refer you back to the videos and the explanations put forth there. I think it's laid out quite clearly and not much room for flights of fancy.

Dharmasherab wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:06 am Isnt Satipatthana meditation a different form of meditations outside oof Vipassana? I wanted to focus this thread on Vipassana types only and not Satipatthana.

"Vipassana" is based on satipatthana. People talk about vipassana as a method, but it's really a quality of mind.

"These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).
"When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.
"When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.
"Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:09 amI can only refer you back to the videos and the explanations put forth there. I think it's laid out quite clearly and not much room for flights of fancy.

Getting 'personal', you seem to have a fetish for rebellious gurus. I have listened to those videos & once is enough. Kind regards

DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:05 pm

Saengnapha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:09 amI can only refer you back to the videos and the explanations put forth there. I think it's laid out quite clearly and not much room for flights of fancy.

Getting 'personal', you seem to have a fetish for rebellious gurus. I have listened to those videos & once is enough. Kind regards

Perhaps that's true, but only if they make any sense to me. When you come into contact with someone like U.G., and observe how they act, and listen to what they have to say over a long period of time, through the many kinds of circumstances that life represents, and you see that there is no fundamental wavering, no disturbances whatsoever, no emotional or mental hindrances, and a constant pointing to the process of perception and the dream of existence that it creates, it affects you. Some repeat the words, the actions, and come to realize that this is not the way. The 'personal' is the way 'you' create the dream of existence. This is the way. Not through the words of anyone, or through someone else's experience or explanation. The doors of perception seem to hold the key to this. U.G. constantly reminded you of this. The Buddha constantly reminded his friends of this. Anyone who constantly reminds you of this is useful and wise. Creating any hierarchy is problematic and impossible to establish.

I have this book, it might be worth a look: http://www.abhidhamma.com/Chanmyay_Blue ... _Talks.pdf

Dharmasherab wrote:Does any one know of resources on these alternate forms of Vipassana?

There is the Mahasati practice taught by Luangpor Teean Jittasubho. His basic modality is given in To One That Feels.

A testimonial I like on this method is Bright and Shining Mind in a Disabled Body by Kampol Thongbunnum