Alternative Forms of Vipassana

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Dharmasherab
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Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Dharmasherab » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:53 am

We can all agree that the most popular form of Vipassana in the world is the technique of Vipassana that is part of the lineage that descends from Ledi Sayadaw. This is the type which is taught in Vipassana centres which was started by S.N. Goenka as well as in Insight Meditation Centre.

However I am aware that within Theravada there are alternative forms of Vipassana. My questions is about what other techniques of Vipassana are there which are outside of the lineage of Ledi Sayadaw?

Does any one know of resources on these alternate forms of Vipassana?

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:03 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:53 am
We can all agree that the most popular form of Vipassana in the world is the technique of Vipassana that is part of the lineage that descends from Ledi Sayadaw.
No, we cannot agree about that. We can agree that it is the most popular in India and the West. In Burma, the Mahāsi Satipaṭṭhāna method is way more popular with over 300 meditation centres compared to (I think) only one U Ba Khin centre in Burma.

Jack Kornfield's book, Living Buddhist Masters lists some of the main traditions.

Mahasi, Sunlun, Mogok, Pa Auk, are a few that spring to mind. No doubt there are others.
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Dharmasherab » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:06 am

Sorry Bhikkhu Pesala when I meant lineage of Ledi Sayadaw I am aware that also includes the technique used in Burma including the names I mentioned. But please correct me if I am wrong.

Isnt Satipatthana meditation a different form of meditations outside oof Vipassana? I wanted to focus this thread on Vipassana types only and not Satipatthana.

I was under the impression that the alternative form of Vipassana was more focussed on inductive investigation and deductive investigation.
Last edited by Dharmasherab on Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DooDoot
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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:15 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:53 am
We can all agree that the most popular form of Vipassana in the world is the technique of Vipassana that is part of the lineage that descends from Ledi Sayadaw. This is the type which is taught in Vipassana centres which was started by S.N. Goenka as well as in Insight Meditation Centre.
Popularity does not necessarily mean it is the same as what is explained in the Pali suttas. If you hold meditation retreats at no financial cost then naturally they will probably become 'popular'.
Proverb
you get what you pay for

In commercial transactions, the quality of goods and services increases as the prices increase, i.e., the more one pays, the better the merchandise. quotations

Primarily used to denigrate inexpensive goods as naturally inferior – “This dollar beer tastes awful!” “What do you expect – you get what you pay for.” In this sense, particularly used in response to complaints by others (“what do you expect?”), or to express disappointment oneself (“oh well”). Also used to refer to expensive goods, to justify the high price – “I really like this car, but the price is a bit high.” “Well, you get what you pay for.” In both cases, the connotation is limitation – you get no more than you pay for (if you want quality, you have to pay).

Sometimes used with the opposite nuance, meaning that because something is expensive, it is thus high quality – “This luxury car is awesome!” “Yeah, you really get what you pay for.” In this context “really” is often used for clarity and emphasis, and the alternative phrase get one's money's worth is often used instead.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_get_what_you_pay_for
:alien:
Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:53 am
However I am aware that within Theravada there are alternative forms of Vipassana.
Vipassana means "clearly seeing" the 3 characteristics & also cause & effect of four noble truths & dependent origination therefore there seems to be no such thing as "alternative forms of vipassana".
Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:53 am
My questions is about what other techniques of Vipassana are there which are outside of the lineage of Ledi Sayadaw?
I have read vipassana is not technique & cannot be taught; which is probably why the noble eightfold path does not include an instructions on vipassana. 'Vipassana' seems to be something that occurs automatically when the mind has right concentration. It seems if a person tries to practise vipassana, such as noting "rising & falling; rising & falling", the mind would spend most of its time thinking rather than seeing. According to the Pali, it seems vipassana means 'seeing' rather than 'thinking'.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:53 am
Does any one know of resources on these alternate forms of Vipassana?
I think a good book about vipassana is this link: http://dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_B ... athing.htm and the following quote from it:
vipassana, insight: literally, "clear seeing," to see clearly, distinctly, directly into the true nature of things, into aniccam-dukkham-anatta. Vipassana is popularly used for mental development practiced for the sake of true insight. In such cases, the physical posture, theory, and method of such practices must not be confused with true realization of impermanence, unsatisfactori­ness, and not-self. Vipassana cannot be taught.
In short, because it is said vipassana cannot be taught, it is probably another aspect of Buddhism to stop us behaving like evangelical Christians urgently wanting to teach others something. Instead, it seems to be something the mind (not "we") should do.
Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

MN 149

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:26 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:06 am
Sorry Bhikkhu Pesala when I meant lineage of Ledi Sayadaw I am aware that also includes the technique used in Burma including the names I mentioned. But please correct me if I am wrong.
My mind first experienced some vipassana around 25 years ago and I never heard of Ledi Sayadaw; let alone any "lineage". Ledi Sayadaw sounds like one of many local teachers.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:06 am
Isnt Satipatthana meditation a different form of meditations outside of Vipassana. I wanted to focus this thread on Vipassana types only and not Satipatthana.
Vipassana is a fruit of satipatthana. In short, satipatthana & vipassana are basically the same thing, just a fruit grows on & is a part of a tree. The tree is something planted & looked after, by watering, fertilizing, etc, but the fruit grows by itself. Satipatthana is the tree & vipassana is the fruit.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:06 am
I was under the impression that the alternative form of Vipassana was more focussed on inductive investigation and deductive investigation.
This impression sounds like Mahayana. I am under the impression 'vipaśyanā' in Mahayana refers to analytical thinking, which is not 'vipassana' in Theravada but is 'yoniso manasikara' (wise reflection). The Pali suttas say wise/analytical refection comes 1st, satipatthana comes 2nd and vipassana comes 3rd, as follows:
Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention (yoniso manasikara). Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness (satipatthana), becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge (vipassana) and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an10.61

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by nibbedhika » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:17 am

I second Bhikkhu Pesala's suggestion. Jack Kornfield's Living Dharma: Teachings and Meditation Instructions from Twelve Theravada Masters has fairly detailed explanations of the methods of both Burmese and Thai-Lao masters. Nearly all of those masters have at least one major center where their method is practiced, even if they are not known in the west.

Since many teach vipassana today, and do so in their own way, there are innumerable minor variations in method. I think the major differences are whether it is based on anapanasati or mindfulness of the body, and the degree to which it follows the Visuddhimagga. Bhante Vimalaramsi is an example of someone who is an EBT fan, and allergic to the Visuddhimagga, while Pa Auk Sayadaw follow the Visuddhimagga quite closely. Many Thai Forest teachers promote anapanasati, because it fits their ideal of simultaneous samatha-vipassana.

Satipatthana meditation and vipassana are the same thing. I don't think anyone differs here. If you are looking for a greater degree of analysis (as opposed to mere observation) then I can warmly recommend Mahasi Sayadaw's Manual of Insight which has an immense amount of analysis built into the method. If you haven't read that book, then have a look at Mahasi Sayadaw - Malukyaputta sutta for an idea of what kind of analysis the book talks about. Finally, any exposition from the suttas - e.g. on the five aggregates of clinging - can be applied within the framework of vipassana, even if it is not specified in the basic method.

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by paul » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:29 am

Quote: “I have read vipassana is not technique & cannot be taught; which is probably why the noble eightfold path does not include an instructions on vipassana.”

Vipassana with a small ’v’ is the central process of the NEP:

“Whereas ignorance obscures the true nature of things, wisdom removes the veils of distortion, enabling us to see phenomena in their fundamental mode of being with the vivacity of direct perception. The training in wisdom centers on the development of insight (vipassana-bhavana), a deep and comprehensive seeing into the nature of existence which fathoms the truth of our being in the only sphere where it is directly accessible to us, namely, in our own experience.”—-“The Noble Eightfold Path”, Bikkhu Bodhi.

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by mal4mac » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:50 am

I'm getting slightly confused by this thread! I find Anãlayo's "Satipatthãna: The Direct Path to Realization", somewhat helpful:

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... t-path.pdf

Also useful is "What Exactly is Vipassana Meditation?" by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/vipassana-meditation/

""Vipassana is the oldest of Buddhist meditation practices. The method comes directly from the Satipatthana Sutta, a discourse attributed to the Buddha himself. Vipassana is a direct and gradual cultivation of mindfulness or awareness." - Gunaratana

Analyo proivides us with a translation of Satipatthãna (Sati = "mindfulness", patthana "placing near".) As Gunaratana points out, Vipassana means "insight". You "place" mindfulness "near" the breath to gain insight. So, in a sense, insight is the fruit of mindfulness. But they are not "the same thing"! If you want to continue with this strained metaphor - try eating the tree bark while trying to convince yourself it's the same as the apple!

Actually mindfulness and the insight gained through mindfulness do seem quite separate things, to me, so maybe a hammer and a nut is a better metaphor. The hammer is mindfulness that breaks the shell to reveal a kernel of insight. (A hammer's rather violent though, Analayo stresses the gentleness of mindfulness, maybe a gently applied nutcracker would be a better metaphor...)

So we have "mindfulness meditation" and "vipassana [insight] meditation". Mindfulness meditation is used to gain insight, while vipassana meditation uses mindfulness to gain insight. That is they are the same thing! Or am I missing something?
- Mal

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by mal4mac » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:17 pm

paul wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:29 am

Vipassana with a small ’v’ is the central process of the NEP:
No it's not, your quote suggests vipassana-bhavana is one "process" in the path. So, indeed, vipissana is not a technique, and it cannot be taught. If vipissana is an apple, then how can an apple be "taught"? It's just there. But, of course, cultivation of apples can be taught.

Also, where does it say vipassana-bhavana is central to the path? The quote says the training in wisdom centres on this, not the whole path. Analayo says something similar. He defines N8P as:

right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, sammã sati, right concentration

He says, paraphrasing p.51: Sati occupies the middle, balancing, position in the mental training section. In support of right effort, sati prevents the arising of unwholesome states of mind. The monitoring quality of sati is also a requirement for the other path factors. M III 73 defines right mindfulness as the presence of awareness when overcoming wrong thought, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, and establishing their counterparts.

Can sati really be described as central? It's like describing fire detectors as central to a factory. They are an important part of the factory, in every part of the factory, but everything in a "right" factory is of importance! There is no central thing. It's surely equally important to have right speech, thought, and concentration on the path, otherwise sati might get lost in a fog of ignorance.

Question - is samma sati the same as vipassana bhavana, i.e., the same process just different terminology that gets you to the view that process from different angles? Why have Bodhi and Analayo used different terminology here? Does that come from being in different traditions, or are they using different suttas?
- Mal

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by paul » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:02 pm

Question - is samma sati the same as vipassana bhavana, i.e., the same process just different terminology that gets you to the view that process from different angles? Why have Bodhi and Analayo used different terminology here? Does that come from being in different traditions, or are they using different suttas?

No right mindfulness isn’t the same as vipassana, RM being one of the links in the path, whereas vipassana is the interaction of sila, samadhi and panna to advance right view through insight. It is the central process to the NEP as it causes steps along the path, just like all the human body coordinates in a balanced way to take steps. This leads to the stages of gradually growing insight as described in the nine insight knowledges.
The quote provided above from ‘The Noble Eightfold Path’ is from the culminating chapter, VIII, ‘Wisdom’, so the chapter represents a summary of all preceding it, and the cyclic process of vipassana in the path cannot really be understood without reading the book in toto. (Incidentally after being some time out of print, that title is again being printed by the Buddhist Publication Society. It is also available online.)

“It is, however, true that a really unshakable and safe foundation to the path is provided only by right view which, starting from the tiniest germ of faith and knowledge, gradually, step by step, develops into penetrating insight (vipassana) and thus forms the immediate condition for the entrance into the 4 supermundane paths and fruits of holiness, and for the realization of Nibbana. Only with regard to this highest form of supermundane insight, may we indeed say that all the remaining links of the path are nothing but the outcome and the accompaniments of right view.”—-“Buddhist Dictionary”, Nyanatiloka.

The above quote illustrates the cyclic operation of the NEP; vipassana can be viewed as both a product of RV and as insight contributing to RV.

I venture to say that the present generation of Buddhists has largely not yet properly comprehended the function of vipassana. This is due to the swing of the Theravada pendulum towards jhana in the present era, whereas ‘The Noble Eightfold Path’ was written in 1984 during the vipassana era. The vipassana process is what differentiates Buddhism from the jhana of Hinduism, being the unique discovery of the Buddha.

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:18 am

paul wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:02 pm
The vipassana process is what differentiates Buddhism from the jhana of Hinduism, being the unique discovery of the Buddha.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the unique discovery of the Buddha was his teaching of paticca-samupadda. After his emergence from Sanna Vedayita Nirodha, Cessation of Sensation and Feeling, the complete stopping of the activity called mind, he saw how the process of paticca-samupadda creates the world, self, and suffering. This is Nirodha Samapatti, seeing things the way they are, Vijja.

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:37 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:18 am
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the unique discovery of the Buddha was his teaching of paticca-samupadda. After his emergence from Sanna Vedayita Nirodha, Cessation of Sensation and Feeling, the complete stopping of the activity called mind, he saw how the process of paticca-samupadda creates the world, self, and suffering. This is Nirodha Samapatti, seeing things the way they are, Vijja.
According to the suttas, it appears Nirodha Samapatti was unrelated to the Buddha's enlightenment & investigations into paticca-samupadda.
With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, I entered upon and abided in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.... When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the destruction of the taints. I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ I directly knew as it actually is: ‘These are the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’... “When I knew and saw thus, my mind was liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it was liberated, there came the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ I directly knew: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn4
"Monks, before I attained supreme Enlightenment, while I was still a Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'This world, alas, has fallen into sore distress. There is being born, growing old, dying, passing over and being reborn. But from all this suffering, from decay and death, no way of release is apparent. Surely there must be some way of release discoverable from this suffering, this decay-and-death.'

"Then, monks, this thought occurred to me 'What being present does decay-and-death come to be? What conditions decay-and-death?' Then, monks, as I considered this thoroughly, the insight and comprehension dawned on me: 'Birth being present, death-and-decay comes to be; decay-and-death is conditioned by birth.' Then the thought occurred to me: 'What being present does birth come to be? What conditions birth?... becoming... grasping... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense-bases... name-form... consciousness... formations?...' Then, as I considered this thoroughly, the insight and comprehension dawned on me: 'Ignorance being present the formations come to be; the formations are conditioned by ignorance.' And so we have it like this: 'Conditioned by ignorance are the formations, conditioned by the formations is consciousness... So there comes about the arising of this entire mass of suffering.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:44 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:37 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:18 am
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the unique discovery of the Buddha was his teaching of paticca-samupadda. After his emergence from Sanna Vedayita Nirodha, Cessation of Sensation and Feeling, the complete stopping of the activity called mind, he saw how the process of paticca-samupadda creates the world, self, and suffering. This is Nirodha Samapatti, seeing things the way they are, Vijja.
According to the suttas, it appears Nirodha Samapatti was unrelated to the Buddha's enlightenment & investigations into paticca-samupadda.
With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, I entered upon and abided in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.... When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the destruction of the taints. I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ I directly knew as it actually is: ‘These are the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’... “When I knew and saw thus, my mind was liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it was liberated, there came the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ I directly knew: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn4
"Monks, before I attained supreme Enlightenment, while I was still a Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'This world, alas, has fallen into sore distress. There is being born, growing old, dying, passing over and being reborn. But from all this suffering, from decay and death, no way of release is apparent. Surely there must be some way of release discoverable from this suffering, this decay-and-death.'

"Then, monks, this thought occurred to me 'What being present does decay-and-death come to be? What conditions decay-and-death?' Then, monks, as I considered this thoroughly, the insight and comprehension dawned on me: 'Birth being present, death-and-decay comes to be; decay-and-death is conditioned by birth.' Then the thought occurred to me: 'What being present does birth come to be? What conditions birth?... becoming... grasping... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense-bases... name-form... consciousness... formations?...' Then, as I considered this thoroughly, the insight and comprehension dawned on me: 'Ignorance being present the formations come to be; the formations are conditioned by ignorance.' And so we have it like this: 'Conditioned by ignorance are the formations, conditioned by the formations is consciousness... So there comes about the arising of this entire mass of suffering.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
Then what is Nirodha Samapatti if it is not the knowing of the cause, cessation, and way, out of suffering? Your quote also doesn't account for the Buddha's continuation into Arupa Samadhi from the 4th jhana and into the complete stopping of mind which has no signs and seems to be the transition point to the complete revelation of paticca-samupadda.

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:09 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:44 am
Then what is Nirodha Samapatti if it is not the knowing of the cause, cessation, and way, out of suffering? Your quote also doesn't account for the Buddha's continuation into Arupa Samadhi from the 4th jhana and into the complete stopping of mind which has no signs and seems to be the transition point to the complete revelation of paticca-samupadda.
I posted what is in the suttas. Where as you are posting your own ideas about a "transition point". I am curious where you get these ideas from? Stopping of mind is not required for revelation of paticca-samupadda, according to the suttas.

Nirodha Samapatti seems best described in MN 43:
What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications (breathing) have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications (thoughts)... his mental fabrications (perception & feeling) have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his (five sense organ) faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Not allowing the mind develop to arupa jhana is mentioned in MN 140. The 8 fold path does not include arupa jhana, which is unnecessary, despite being a natural development.
So too, bhikkhu, then there remains only equanimity [4th jhana], purified and bright, malleable, wieldy, and radiant.

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness……to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time.’

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness…to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned.’ He does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands thus: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn140

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:06 am
Isnt Satipatthana meditation a different form of meditations outside oof Vipassana? I wanted to focus this thread on Vipassana types only and not Satipatthana.

I was under the impression that the alternative form of Vipassana was more focussed on inductive investigation and deductive investigation.
My understanding is that "vipassana" is seeing things as they are. "Satipatthana" may be a reference to a particular sutta on the foundations of mindfulness (link to info). You may just want to find a good practice and stick with it. Some particular differences (e.g. focusing on nostrils or abdomen, focusing on bodily sensations or other foundations) probably don't make that much difference. Any practice starts with a foundation of sila. Stick with it and be encouraged.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:09 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:44 am
Then what is Nirodha Samapatti if it is not the knowing of the cause, cessation, and way, out of suffering? Your quote also doesn't account for the Buddha's continuation into Arupa Samadhi from the 4th jhana and into the complete stopping of mind which has no signs and seems to be the transition point to the complete revelation of paticca-samupadda.
I posted what is in the suttas. Where as you are posting your own ideas about a "transition point". I am curious where you get these ideas from? Stopping of mind is not required for revelation of paticca-samupadda, according to the suttas.

Nirodha Samapatti seems best described in MN 43:
What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications (breathing) have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications (thoughts)... his mental fabrications (perception & feeling) have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his (five sense organ) faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Not allowing the mind develop to arupa jhana is mentioned in MN 140. The 8 fold path does not include arupa jhana, which is unnecessary, despite being a natural development.
So too, bhikkhu, then there remains only equanimity [4th jhana], purified and bright, malleable, wieldy, and radiant.

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness……to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time.’

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness…to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned.’ He does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands thus: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn140
The ideas put forth are from Punnaji's talks on Beyond the 4 Jhanas:Arupa Samadhi, Nirodha Samapatti, and Paticca-Samupadda. They seem quite clear to me and describe what he calls the 2 ways of awakening from the dream of existence. Within one of the talks, he describes what he called the Buddha's 'shortcut'. They are worth anyone's time to listen to as he is one of the few people who are talking about the actual awakening.

Saengnapha
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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:15 am

L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 am
Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:06 am
Isnt Satipatthana meditation a different form of meditations outside oof Vipassana? I wanted to focus this thread on Vipassana types only and not Satipatthana.

I was under the impression that the alternative form of Vipassana was more focussed on inductive investigation and deductive investigation.
My understanding is that "vipassana" is seeing things as they are. "Satipatthana" may be a reference to a particular sutta on the foundations of mindfulness (link to info). You may just want to find a good practice and stick with it. Some particular differences (e.g. focusing on nostrils or abdomen, focusing on bodily sensations or other foundations) probably don't make that much difference. Any practice starts with a foundation of sila. Stick with it and be encouraged.
Vipassana is usually translated as insight. The Buddha's reference to 'seeing things the way they are' was his awakening to dependent origination, paticca-samupadda, and the clear comprehension of how the world, self, and suffering, are created. This is cessation, nibbana. It is supramundane and is not the same as what most call insight in their daily life.

DooDoot
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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:22 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 am
The ideas put forth are from Punnaji's talks on Beyond the 4 Jhanas:Arupa Samadhi, Nirodha Samapatti, and Paticca-Samupadda. They seem quite clear to me and describe what he calls the 2 ways of awakening from the dream of existence. Within one of the talks, he describes what he called the Buddha's 'shortcut'. They are worth anyone's time to listen to as he is one of the few people who are talking about the actual awakening.
This seems to be Punnaji's personal idea. It seems the idea of the Pali suttas is the neutral basis of awakening from the dream of ego existence is the void/luminous mind (pabhassara citta) rather than the ending/absence of mind.
The Continuation of the Round

On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

The Ending of the Round: Full Cessation

On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn38
:candle:
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:15 am
Vipassana is usually translated as insight. The Buddha's reference to 'seeing things the way they are' was his awakening to dependent origination, paticca-samupadda, and the clear comprehension of how the world, self, and suffering, are created. This is cessation, nibbana. It is supramundane and is not the same as what most call insight in their daily life.
The ending of 'the world' (which is a synonym for 'self' & 'suffering') does not require the ending of mind, according to the Pali suttas. To quote:
And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:17 am, edited 6 times in total.

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L.N.
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Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:24 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:15 am
Vipassana is usually translated as insight. The Buddha's reference to 'seeing things the way they are' was his awakening to dependent origination, paticca-samupadda, and the clear comprehension of how the world, self, and suffering, are created. This is cessation, nibbana. It is supramundane and is not the same as what most call insight in their daily life.
Then what is insight in their daily life, if not seeing things as they are? Another resource:
"One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight (BCBS Edition), 8 March 2011, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

Saengnapha
Posts: 337
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:55 am

L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:24 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:15 am
Vipassana is usually translated as insight. The Buddha's reference to 'seeing things the way they are' was his awakening to dependent origination, paticca-samupadda, and the clear comprehension of how the world, self, and suffering, are created. This is cessation, nibbana. It is supramundane and is not the same as what most call insight in their daily life.
Then what is insight in their daily life, if not seeing things as they are? Another resource:
"One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight (BCBS Edition), 8 March 2011, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html.
It is a limited pov, unsatisfying. It is still a samsaric vision.

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