Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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indianromeo
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Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by indianromeo » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:56 pm

Hi all,

Just curious as to how people like to intepret worldy and unworldy, as the Analayo text suggests several interpretations. As for me, I like to think of "off the path" and "on the path" though I understand that major Buddhist thinkers intepret this differently, again according to Analayo.

Metta

perkele
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by perkele » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:10 pm

indianromeo wrote:Hi all,

Just curious as to how people like to intepret worldy and unworldy, as the Analayo text suggests several interpretations. As for me, I like to think of "off the path" and "on the path" though I understand that major Buddhist thinkers intepret this differently, again according to Analayo.

Metta
Which "the Analayo text" are you referring to? I would be interested in reading about it, too. :reading:

I suppose feelings connected with samvega and pasada could perhaps be understood as "un-worldly".

What are the Pali terms translated as "worldly" or "unworldly" feelings here?

I think I have heard about juxtapositions of "householder's joy" vs. "renunciant pain" and the like (and that the latter is still better somehow maybe, I guess; Ven. Thanissaro had used those terms for example in this sutta translation about 108 feelings - and I think he explained them in some of his writings, maybe it was in the book Right Mindfulness.)

:anjali:
Last edited by perkele on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

indianromeo
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by indianromeo » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:15 pm

Hi perkele; I mean the Analayo text on the "Direct Path" have you seen it, with the blue cover, it's quite helpful to understand the Satipatthana Sutta, for me, anyway.

perkele
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by perkele » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:23 pm

indianromeo wrote:Hi perkele; I mean the Analayo text on the "Direct Path" have you seen it, with the blue cover, it's quite helpful to understand the Satipatthana Sutta, for me, anyway.
Thanks. I guess that would be this one? (I have not read it.) Pointing to a relevant page or passage would be most helpful for anyone interested, I suppose.

:anjali:

Derek
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by Derek » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:45 pm

sāmisa = worldly, fleshly, related to the material

nirāmisa = unworldly, spiritual, related to the non-material

perkele
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by perkele » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:05 am

Derek wrote:sāmisa = worldly, fleshly, related to the material

nirāmisa = unworldly, spiritual, related to the non-material
Thanks, after searching here, it seems these are different terms than those translated (by Ven. Thanissaro) as "householder's (gehasitāni) joy/pain" and "renunciant (nekkhammasitāni) joy/pain" respectively.

I think I have read several times that the nirāmisa ("not of the flesh") kind of joy is the joy of jhāna. I wonder what nirāmisa pain might be. :thinking: Maybe the kind of spiritual pain the sage Asita must have felt after predicting the Bodhisatta's enlightenment in this life and realizing that he himself would not live long enough to hear his teaching.

indianromeo
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by indianromeo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:32 am

perkele wrote:
indianromeo wrote:Hi perkele; I mean the Analayo text on the "Direct Path" have you seen it, with the blue cover, it's quite helpful to understand the Satipatthana Sutta, for me, anyway.
Thanks. I guess that would be this one? (I have not read it.) Pointing to a relevant page or passage would be most helpful for anyone interested, I suppose.

:anjali:
Correct, that is a slightly different version, perkele, but, yes, that's the one that I am using as my primary reference material. Regarding my question, for what it's worth, Chapter 7.1, with the passage beginning, "In the satipaṭṭhāna instructions, mindfulness of these three feelings is followed by directing awareness to an additional subdivision of feelings into “worldly” (sāmisa) and “unworldly'"" Analayo describes the various interpretations as such, and offers a preliminary conclusion as to the distinction relating to the path and off the path or I should say "regress," while walking it. Thank you for your consideration, I imagine the later comments may address the question that I had :namaste:

indianromeo
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by indianromeo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:44 am

Derek wrote:sāmisa = worldly, fleshly, related to the material

nirāmisa = unworldly, spiritual, related to the non-material
Thank you Derek; I suppose this is your personal view, as well? Sorry, footnote # 9 in Analayo's Sattipathana Ch.7.1 alludes to several modern diverging interpetations:


"According to Goenka 1999: p. 53, and Soni 1980: p. 6, the same two terms are used in present-day India to distinguish between vegetarian and non-vegetarian food. Nhat Hanh 1990: p. 71, understands the two terms to represent the distinction between physiological and psychological causes of feelings (e.g. a bad feeling resulting from having gone to bed late the night before would be “worldly”). Maurice Walshe 1987: p. 591 n. 658 and n. 659 suggests “carnal” and “spiritual” as renderings."


Let's suppose the interpretation is "material," for the sake of this dialogue, Derek? In this case, which kind of feeling is the one that arises when one eats soup? I surmise you would say material, yes? If yes I can only imagine that these kinds of feelings arise often.

Finally I can only assume that one should not "feel guilty" (gasp!) about such frequent "material" feeling tones and merely note them, for one cannot "sense" thr Dharma all of their waking hours, am I right?

Derek
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by Derek » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:01 am

I think we are all pretty much in agreement here.

Page 156 (page 170 of the PDF file) gives this translation from the sutta:
When feeling a worldly pleasant feeling, he knows “I feel a worldly pleasant feeling”; when feeling an unworldly pleasant feeling, he knows “I feel an unworldly pleasant feeling”
On page 158 (page 172 of the PDF file) Anãlayo says:
This additional dimension revolves around an evaluation of feeling that is based not on its affective nature, but on the ethical context of its arising. The basic point introduced here is awareness of whether a particular feeling is related to progress or regress on the path.
I do not agree with Anãlayo at all. The sutta talks purely about knowing. "When feeling a worldly pleasant feeling, he knows 'I feel a worldly pleasant feeling.'" There is no "evaluation of feeling" going on at all. It is pure knowing.

santa100
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by santa100 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:23 am

indianromeo wrote:Just curious as to how people like to intepret worldy and unworldy, as the Analayo text suggests several interpretations.
Ven. Bodhi's note to MN 10 explains:
Examples of worldly and unworldly forms of feelings are given at MN 137.9-15 under the rubric of the 6 kinds of joy, grief, and equanimity based respectively on the household life and renunciation.
And from MN 137.9-15:
9. “‘The thirty-six positions of beings should be understood. ’1237 So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are six kinds of joy based on the household life and six kinds of joy based on renunciation.1238 There are six kinds of grief based on the household life and six kinds of grief based on renunciation. There are six kinds of equanimity based on the household life and six kinds of equanimity based on renunciation.

10. “Herein, what are the six kinds of joy based on the household life? When one regards as a gain the gain of forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable, gratifying, and associated with worldliness—or when one recalls what was formerly obtained that has passed, ceased, and changed—joy arises. Such joy as this is called joy based on the household life.

“When one regards as a gain the gain of sounds cognizable by the ear…the gain of odours cognizable by the nose…the gain of flavours cognizable by the tongue…the gain of tangibles cognizable by the body…the gain of mind-objects cognizable by the mind that are wished for, desired, agreeable, gratifying, and associated with worldliness—or when one recalls what was formerly obtained that has passed, ceased, and changed—joy arises. Such joy as this is called joy based on the household life. These are the six kinds of joy based on the household life.

11. “Herein, what are the six kinds of joy based on renunciation? When, by knowing the impermanence, change, fading away, and cessation of forms, one sees as it actually is with proper wisdom that forms both formerly and now are all impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, joy arises. Such joy as this is called joy based on renunciation.1239

“When, by knowing the impermanence, change, fading away, and cessation of sounds…of odours…of flavours…of tangibles… [218] of mind-objects, one sees as it actually is with proper wisdom that mind-objects both formerly and now are all impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, joy arises. Such joy as this is called joy based on renunciation. These are the six kinds of joy based on renunciation.

12. “Herein, what are the six kinds of grief based on the household life? When one regards as a non-gain the non-gain of forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable, gratifying, and associated with worldliness—or when one recalls what was formerly not obtained that has passed, ceased, and changed—grief arises. Such grief as this is called grief based on the household life.

“When one regards as a non-gain the non-gain of sounds cognizable by the ear…the non-gain of odours cognizable by the nose…the non-gain of flavours cognizable by the tongue…the non-gain of tangibles cognizable by the body…the non-gain of mind-objects cognizable by the mind that are wished for, desired, agreeable, gratifying, and associated with worldliness—or when one recalls what was formerly not obtained that has passed, ceased, and changed—grief arises. Such grief as this is called grief based on the household life. These are the six kinds of grief based on the household life.

13. “Herein, what are the six kinds of grief based on renunciation? When, by knowing the impermanence, change, fading away, and cessation of forms, one sees as it actually is with proper wisdom that forms both formerly and now are all impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, one generates a longing for the supreme liberations thus: ‘When shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones now enter upon and abide in?’1240 In one who generates thus a longing for the supreme liberations, grief arises with that longing as condition. Such grief as this is called grief based on renunciation.

“When, by knowing the impermanence, change, fading away, and cessation of sounds…of odours…of flavours…of tangibles …of mind-objects, one sees as it actually is with proper wisdom that mind-objects both formerly and now are all impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, [219] one generates a longing for the supreme liberations thus: ‘When shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones now enter upon and abide in?’ In one who thus generates a longing for the supreme liberations, grief arises with that longing as condition. Such grief as this is called grief based on renunciation. These are the six kinds of grief based on renunciation.

14. “Herein, what are the six kinds of equanimity based on the household life? On seeing a form with the eye, equanimity arises in a foolish infatuated ordinary person, in an untaught ordinary person who has not conquered his limitations or conquered the results [of action] and who is blind to danger. Such equanimity as this does not transcend the form; that is why it is called equanimity based on the household life.1241

“On hearing a sound with the ear…On smelling an odour with the nose…On tasting a flavour with the tongue…On touching a tangible with the body…On cognizing a mind-object with the mind, equanimity arises in a foolish infatuated ordinary person, in an untaught ordinary person who has not conquered his limitations or conquered the results [of action] and who is blind to danger. Such equanimity as this does not transcend the mind-object; that is why it is called equanimity based on the household life. These are the six kinds of equanimity based on the household life.

15. “Herein, what are the six kinds of equanimity based on renunciation? When, by knowing the impermanence, change, fading away, and cessation of forms, one sees as it actually is with proper wisdom that forms both formerly and now are all impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, equanimity arises. Such equanimity as this transcends the form; that is why it is called equanimity based on renunciation.

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mikenz66
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:28 am

Interesting question.

From the sutta quoted above we have:
“When, by knowing the impermanence, change, fading away, and cessation of sounds…of odours…of flavours…of tangibles… [218] of mind-objects, one sees as it actually is with proper wisdom that mind-objects both formerly and now are all impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, joy arises. Such joy as this is called joy based on renunciation. These are the six kinds of joy based on renunciation.
I've heard some interpret certain feelings, such as joy when giving, as an example of this sort of unworldly feeling. This seems plausible, but it would be interesting if it were spelled out more explicitly somewhere.

:heart:
Mike

santa100
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by santa100 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:42 am

mikenz66 wrote:I've heard some interpret certain feelings, such as joy when giving, as an example of this sort of unworldly feeling. This seems plausible, but it would be interesting if it were spelled out more explicitly somewhere.
Ven. Brahm gave an excellent description of that kind of joy in his writing with a seemingly paradoxical title at first glance: Joy At Last To Know There Is No Happiness In The World

pegembara
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by pegembara » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:42 am

Unworldly ----> result of meditation practice.
Greater unworldly ------> outcome of Unbinding.
Worldly -------> all other feeling

Another version in the suttas.

"There is, O monks, worldly joy,[1] there is unworldly joy, and there is a still greater unworldly joy. There is worldly happiness,[2] there is unworldly happiness, and there is a still greater unworldly happiness. There is worldly equanimity, there is unworldly equanimity, and there a still greater unworldly equanimity. There is worldly freedom, there is unworldly freedom, and there is a still greater unworldly freedom.

"Now, O monks, what is worldly joy? There are these five cords of sense desire: forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense-desire and tempting to lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear... odors cognizable by the nose... flavors cognizable by the tongue... tangibles cognizable by the body, wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense-desire and tempting to lust. It is the joy that arises dependent on these five cords of sense desire which is called 'worldly joy.'

"Now what is unworldly joy? Quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, a monk enters upon and abides in the first meditative absorption,[3] which is accompanied by thought-conception and discursive thinking, and has joy and happiness born of seclusion. With the stilling of thought-conception and discursive thinking, he enters upon and abides in the second meditative absorption which has internal confidence and singleness of mind without thought conception and discursive thinking, and has joy and happiness born of concentration. This is called 'unworldly joy.'

"And what is the still greater unworldly joy? When a taint-free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred, freed of delusion, then there arises joy. This called a 'still greater unworldly joy.'

"Now, O monks, what is worldly happiness? There are these five cords of sense desire: forms cognizable by the eye... sounds cognizable by the ear... odors cognizable by the nose... flavors cognizable by the tongue... tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense desire and alluring. It is the happiness and gladness that arises dependent on these five cords of sense desire which are called 'worldly happiness.'

"Now what is unworldly happiness? Quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, a monk enters upon and abides in the first meditative absorption... With the stilling of thought-conception and discursive thinking, he enters upon and abides in the second meditative absorption... With the fading away of joy as well, he dwells in equanimity, mindfully and fully aware he feels happiness within, and enters upon and abides in the third meditative absorption of which the Noble Ones announce: 'He dwells in happiness who has equanimity and is mindful.' This is called 'unworldly happiness.'

"And what is the still greater unworldly happiness? When a taint-free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred, freed of delusion, then there arises happiness. This is called a 'still greater unworldly happiness.'

"Now, O monks, what is worldly equanimity? There are these five cords of sensual desire: forms cognizable by the eye... tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense desire and alluring. It is the equanimity that arises with regard to these five cords of sense desire which is called 'worldly equanimity.'

"Now, what is unworldy equanimity? With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of gladness and sadness, a monk enters upon and abides in the fourth meditative absorption, which has neither pain-nor-pleasure and has purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. This is called 'unworldly equanimity.'

"And what is the still greater unworldly equanimity? When a taint-free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred and freed of delusion, then there arises equanimity. This is called a 'still greater unworldly equanimity.'

"Now, O monks, what is worldly freedom? The freedom connected with the material. What is unworldly freedom? The freedom connected with the immaterial. And what is the still greater unworldly freedom? When a taint-free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred, and freed of delusion, then there arises freedom."

Niramisa Sutta
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

indianromeo
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Re: Feeling tone - how do you like to interpret "worldly" and "unworldly"?

Post by indianromeo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:12 am

Thank you all, it's your generosity that keeps this site fresh with answers to questions like mine.

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