The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
zan
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The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby zan » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:30 am

So one of the spiritual obstacles is not believing in rebirth and such concepts. Normally I believe in rebirth but the more I practice and the better my practice becomes the stronger the wrong view gets that there is no such thing as rebirth and that such things are not real.

It is a very difficult thing. Essentially when I am failing to practice often or failing to give much effort I am very concerned about rebirth and such things but when my practice is very strong all my worries cease, including worrying about rebirth and related things and I start to form the wrong view that they are not true!

The effect is cumulative in both directions and proportionate to the amount I am practicing or failing to practice.


What can I do to keep my views correct?
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

SarathW
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby SarathW » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:43 am

I the idea of the re-birth is a conventional Dhamma and not ultimate Dhamma.
What is ultimate is the change. (you can call it re-birth if you wish)
:focus:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Mkoll
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby Mkoll » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:53 am

Interesting. For me it was the other way around: the longer I've practiced the more I've become confident in rebirth. At this point, it's hard to conceive of things being any other way. Many of the others I've spoken to have the same experience. You're the first I've heard from to have the opposite.

I'd suggest just continue practicing without proliferating about whether rebirth is true or not. The strategies in MN 20 would be helpful for this, especially the third regarding ignoring them. It may be helpful to consider how your mind has been conditioned to think in these patterns. These thoughts come up because of that conditioning, that kamma. If it's something you've struggled with for a long time, it will take some time to settle down---if you give rise to the conditions that lead to that settling. Finally, it might be helpful to acknowledge your understanding of wrong view as wrong view as arising from the wisdom faculty. This may help you see there is no reason to beat yourself up or panic because you're heading in the right direction.

Good luck! :smile:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

paul
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby paul » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:12 am

SarathW wrote:I the idea of the re-birth is a conventional Dhamma and not ultimate Dhamma.
What is ultimate is the change. (you can call it re-birth if you wish)

:goodpost:

Rebirth is not as important as getting an understanding of cause and effect by studying one's own actions and the repercussions that follow them. The task is not believing in rebirth, but experiencing kamma vipaka. That is fundamental Right View.

"But for practical purposes two kinds of right view stand out as primary. One is mundane right view, right view which operates within the confines of the world. The other is supramundane right view, the superior right view which leads to liberation from the world. The first is concerned with the laws governing material and spiritual progress within the round of becoming, with the principles that lead to higher and lower states of existence, to mundane happiness and suffering. The second is concerned with the principles essential to liberation. It does not aim merely at spiritual progress from life to life, but at emancipation from the cycle of recurring lives and deaths."--Bikkhu Bodhi, "The Noble Eightfold Path."

See MN 117
Last edited by paul on Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Phena
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby Phena » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:22 am

My advice would also be what Mkoll suggests, put it aside and not proliferate about whether rebirth is true or not.

Here is a link to the Sammaditthi Sutta: The Discourse on Right View. You'll see there is much more there than views about rebirth. The main concerns being:

    • The Wholesome and the Unwholesome
    • Nutriment
    • The Four Noble Truths
    • Dependent Origination
    • Taints

zan
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby zan » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:51 pm

Mkoll wrote:Interesting. For me it was the other way around: the longer I've practiced the more I've become confident in rebirth. At this point, it's hard to conceive of things being any other way. Many of the others I've spoken to have the same experience. You're the first I've heard from to have the opposite.

I'd suggest just continue practicing without proliferating about whether rebirth is true or not. The strategies in MN 20 would be helpful for this, especially the third regarding ignoring them. It may be helpful to consider how your mind has been conditioned to think in these patterns. These thoughts come up because of that conditioning, that kamma. If it's something you've struggled with for a long time, it will take some time to settle down---if you give rise to the conditions that lead to that settling. Finally, it might be helpful to acknowledge your understanding of wrong view as wrong view as arising from the wisdom faculty. This may help you see there is no reason to beat yourself up or panic because you're heading in the right direction.

Good luck! :smile:


Thank you! I will read up on that and consider your advice.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

zan
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby zan » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:52 pm

SarathW wrote:I the idea of the re-birth is a conventional Dhamma and not ultimate Dhamma.
What is ultimate is the change. (you can call it re-birth if you wish)
:focus:


Thank you. Should I call it something else? Is it called rebirth in the suttas? Am I misunderstanding something?
Last edited by zan on Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

zan
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby zan » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:54 pm

paul wrote:
SarathW wrote:I the idea of the re-birth is a conventional Dhamma and not ultimate Dhamma.
What is ultimate is the change. (you can call it re-birth if you wish)

:goodpost:

Rebirth is not as important as getting an understanding of cause and effect by studying one's own actions and the repercussions that follow them. The task is not believing in rebirth, but experiencing kamma vipaka. That is fundamental Right View.

"But for practical purposes two kinds of right view stand out as primary. One is mundane right view, right view which operates within the confines of the world. The other is supramundane right view, the superior right view which leads to liberation from the world. The first is concerned with the laws governing material and spiritual progress within the round of becoming, with the principles that lead to higher and lower states of existence, to mundane happiness and suffering. The second is concerned with the principles essential to liberation. It does not aim merely at spiritual progress from life to life, but at emancipation from the cycle of recurring lives and deaths."--Bikkhu Bodhi, "The Noble Eightfold Path."


Makes sense. Thank you I will take a look at that sutta.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

zan
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby zan » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:36 pm

Could it be possible that it is equally important to let go of the idea of rebirth being true as it is to let go of the idea of it being untrue?
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

JohnK
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby JohnK » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:37 pm

I've heard teachers say that thoughts should be known as thoughts -- impermanent blips that arise and pass that we often get all caught up in -- is it a good thought or a bad thought? Is it a true thought or a false thought? Is It a thought I should try to get rid of? Is it a thought I should tell my friends about? Is it a thought that makes me feel good about myself? Bad about myself? Rather than focus on the content of the thought, just know it as a thought. Of course, there are other instructions as well, but this might be useful.
Edit: So maybe as you practice more, you just aren't believing your thoughts as readily -- not necessarily a problem.

Just a thought; good luck.
"Why is it, Master Kaccana, that ascetics fight with ascetics?"
"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics" (AN 2: iv, 6, abridged).
Kindly eyes, not verbal daggers.

SamKR
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby SamKR » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:14 pm

zan wrote:... Normally I believe in rebirth but the more I practice and the better my practice becomes the stronger the wrong view gets that there is no such thing as rebirth and that such things are not real.

Actually, from ultimate sense this (the part I emphasized above) might be true because like everything else "rebirth" is also empty without any inherent existence of its own. Actually, rebirth, like anything else, is neither inherently real/true nor absolutely unreal/false. It is what it is, as it arises, as such. Kalakarama sutta might be relevant here:

Thus, monks, the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime.


"Whatever is seen or heard or sensed
and fastened onto as true by others,
One who is Such — among the self-fettered —
wouldn't further claim to be true or even false.

"Having seen well in advance that arrow
where generations are fastened & hung
— 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' —
there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


zan wrote:What can I do to keep my views correct?

Perhaps, along with whatever practice you are doing why not contemplate the following suttas, to name a few:
- Kaccayanagotta Sutta
- Kalakarama Sutta
- Bahiya Sutta
- Phena Sutta

dhammarelax
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby dhammarelax » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:42 pm

zan wrote:So one of the spiritual obstacles is not believing in rebirth and such concepts. Normally I believe in rebirth but the more I practice and the better my practice becomes the stronger the wrong view gets that there is no such thing as rebirth and that such things are not real.

It is a very difficult thing. Essentially when I am failing to practice often or failing to give much effort I am very concerned about rebirth and such things but when my practice is very strong all my worries cease, including worrying about rebirth and related things and I start to form the wrong view that they are not true!

The effect is cumulative in both directions and proportionate to the amount I am practicing or failing to practice.


What can I do to keep my views correct?


Why to take a stance? In the way that I practice it doesnt make a difference if it exists or not.
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

zan
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby zan » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:54 pm

JohnK wrote:I've heard teachers say that thoughts should be known as thoughts -- impermanent blips that arise and pass that we often get all caught up in -- is it a good thought or a bad thought? Is it a true thought or a false thought? Is It a thought I should try to get rid of? Is it a thought I should tell my friends about? Is it a thought that makes me feel good about myself? Bad about myself? Rather than focus on the content of the thought, just know it as a thought. Of course, there are other instructions as well, but this might be useful.
Edit: So maybe as you practice more, you just aren't believing your thoughts as readily -- not necessarily a problem.

Just a thought; good luck.


So just keep noting and don't grasp the thought of disbelief either? Makes sense.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

zan
Posts: 381
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby zan » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:56 pm

dhammarelax wrote:
zan wrote:So one of the spiritual obstacles is not believing in rebirth and such concepts. Normally I believe in rebirth but the more I practice and the better my practice becomes the stronger the wrong view gets that there is no such thing as rebirth and that such things are not real.

It is a very difficult thing. Essentially when I am failing to practice often or failing to give much effort I am very concerned about rebirth and such things but when my practice is very strong all my worries cease, including worrying about rebirth and related things and I start to form the wrong view that they are not true!

The effect is cumulative in both directions and proportionate to the amount I am practicing or failing to practice.


What can I do to keep my views correct?


Why to take a stance? In the way that I practice it doesnt make a difference if it exists or not.


Well disbelief is said to be a spiritual obstacle. But I suppose neither belief nor non belief would be no obstacle?
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby SarathW » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:52 pm

Could it be possible that it is equally important to let go of the idea of rebirth being true as it is to let go of the idea of it being untrue?


It is not a matter of true or untrue.
It is about the nature of birth.
Birth also impermanent, painful and not self.


===========
When he sees Birth as impermanent, gladness springs up in him; when he is glad happiness springs up in him; when his mind is happy his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil he feels pleasure; when he has pleasure his cognizance becomes concentrated; when his cognizance is concentrated he knows and sees correctly; when he knows and sees correctly he becomes dispassionate; when he becomes dispassionate his greed fades away; with the fading away of greed he is liberated. When he sees Birth as painful, gladness springs up in him; when he is glad happiness springs up in him; when his mind is happy his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil he feels pleasure; when he has pleasure his cognizance becomes concentrated; when his cognizance is concentrated he knows and sees correctly; when he knows and sees correctly he becomes dispassionate; when he becomes dispassionate his greed fades away; with the fading away of greed he is liberated. When he sees Birth as not self, gladness springs up in him; when he is glad happiness springs up in him; when his mind is happy his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil he feels pleasure; when he has pleasure his cognizance becomes concentrated; when his cognizance is concentrated he knows and sees correctly; when he knows and sees correctly he becomes dispassionate; when he becomes dispassionate his greed fades away; with the fading away of greed he is liberated.

http://chozang.net/201%20ideas.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Pondera
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby Pondera » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:07 am

The three knowledges imply reality to rebirth. If you are progressing as a Buddhist, you should be gaining access to your long, long, long term memory banks - your own personal Akashic records.

Maybe you should try past life regression therapy.

More importantly. What is it, specifically, about practicing that makes you a non-believer in rebirth?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=RDdLIZdKwSqW0&params=OALAAQE%253D&v=dLIZdKwSqW0

The past is written in red ink, founded on the earth, for the sake of transparency.

Darkness follows the past into the present.

"My back aches;
I will rest it."

- the Buddha

dhammarelax
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby dhammarelax » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:34 pm

zan wrote:
dhammarelax wrote:
zan wrote:So one of the spiritual obstacles is not believing in rebirth and such concepts. Normally I believe in rebirth but the more I practice and the better my practice becomes the stronger the wrong view gets that there is no such thing as rebirth and that such things are not real.

It is a very difficult thing. Essentially when I am failing to practice often or failing to give much effort I am very concerned about rebirth and such things but when my practice is very strong all my worries cease, including worrying about rebirth and related things and I start to form the wrong view that they are not true!

The effect is cumulative in both directions and proportionate to the amount I am practicing or failing to practice.


What can I do to keep my views correct?


Why to take a stance? In the way that I practice it doesnt make a difference if it exists or not.


Well disbelief is said to be a spiritual obstacle. But I suppose neither belief nor non belief would be no obstacle?


If those things that you neither believe nor disbelieve have nothing to do with your meditation practice I dont see why would they affect you.

Smile
Dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

Bakmoon
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Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!

Postby Bakmoon » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:23 pm

zan wrote:So one of the spiritual obstacles is not believing in rebirth and such concepts. Normally I believe in rebirth but the more I practice and the better my practice becomes the stronger the wrong view gets that there is no such thing as rebirth and that such things are not real.

Is this related with the teaching of non-self? A lot of people get really hung up on the question "If there is no self, then what gets reborn?" Is this the issue that is coming up for you?
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.


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