Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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SarathW
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Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by SarathW » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:43 am

Bhante Ayasma Aggasitta said "Sati is not stay in the present moment!"

What is your comment on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcomvWmzgQI
Last edited by SarathW on Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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bodom
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Re: Sati is not stay in the present moment!

Post by bodom » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:06 pm

I didn't listen to the talk but I do agree that mindfulness is not just merely keeping the mind in the present moment. Mindfulness means not forgetting, to remember or to keep in mind:
“And which is the faculty of sati? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has sati, is endowed with excellent proficiency in sati, remembering & recollecting what was done and said a long time ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & having sati— subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves—ardent, alert, & having sati—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of sati.” — SN 48:10
Sampajanna is the factor which keeps the mind in the present moment:
“And how is a monk alert? When going forward & returning, he makes himself alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe, & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself alert. This is how a monk is alert.” — SN 36:7
Thanissaro explains further:
As you do this, you develop three qualities of mind. One is mindfulness (sati). The term mindfulness means being able to remember, to keep something in mind. In the case of establishing the body as a frame of reference, it means being able to remember where you're supposed to be — with the body — and you don't let yourself forget. The second quality, alertness (sampajañña), means being aware of what is actually going on in the present. Are you with the body? Are you with the breath? Is the breath comfortable? Simply notice what's actually happening in the present moment. We tend to confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's actually happening. The third quality, ardency (atappa), means two things. One, if you realize that the mind has wandered off, you bring it right back. Immediately. You don't let it wander around, sniffing the flowers. Two, when the mind is with its proper frame of reference, ardency means trying to be as sensitive as possible to what's going on — not just drifting in the present moment, but really trying to penetrate more and more into the subtle details of what's actually happening with the breath or the mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... cmind.html

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

SarathW
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Re: Sati is not stay in the present moment!

Post by SarathW » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:25 pm

Thanks Bodom.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:41 am

Bhante Aggasitta give some interesting points (counter 5.06)in the following video.

To be here and now (present moment) means stay with the five senses.
a) The five senses only can stay in the present moment.
Stay in the present moment (open awareness) is equal to keep attention on the breath (focus awareness).
Mind is not agitated. With open awareness meditator contemplate on Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
b) Mind can stay mainly with the past or the future. (unless it is trained)
Thinking means mind occupy with the past or future.
c) Mind can take only one object at a time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJqzog_SKHs
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by dhammarelax » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:23 pm

SarathW wrote:Bhante Ayasma Aggasitta said "Sati is not stay in the present moment!"

What is your comment on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcomvWmzgQI
Consider this:

AN 6.19 Mindfulness of death

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"

I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying at Nadika, in the Brick Hall. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks replied.

The Blessed One said, "Mindfulness of death, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit & great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end. Therefore you should develop mindfulness of death."

When this was said, a certain monk addressed the Blessed One, "I already develop mindfulness of death."

"And how do you develop mindfulness of death?"

"I think, 'O, that I might live for a day & night, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal.' This is how I develop mindfulness of death."

Then another monk addressed the Blessed One, "I, too, already develop mindfulness of death."

"And how do you develop mindfulness of death?"

"I think, 'O, that I might live for a day, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal.' This is how I develop mindfulness of death."

Then another monk addressed the Blessed One, "I, too, develop mindfulness of death." ... "I think, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to eat a meal, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal.' ..."

Then another monk addressed the Blessed One, "I, too, develop mindfulness of death." ... "I think, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up four morsels of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal.' ..."

Then another monk addressed the Blessed One, "I, too, develop mindfulness of death." ... "I think, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal.' ..."

Then another monk addressed the Blessed One, "I, too, develop mindfulness of death." ... "I think, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal.' This is how I develop mindfulness of death."

When this was said, the Blessed One addressed the monks. "Whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for a day & night... for a day... for the interval that it takes to eat a meal... for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up four morsels of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedlessly. They develop mindfulness of death slowly for the sake of ending the effluents.

"But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.

"Therefore you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell heedfully. We will develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.' That is how you should train yourselves."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.
"
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

paul
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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by paul » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:21 pm

I agree that concentrating on the present is not mindfulness and would be unprofitable. The frame of impermanence means present events must be placed in a time sequence of birth, growth, ripeness, decline and death, expanding the perception of them beyond the immediate. The mind’s bias toward selecting the ripeness aspect of perceptions according with the primal search for food means that focussing on the present without a frame perpetuates the hallucination. There needs to be the effort to include fallen leaves, decay, sickness and death into everyday thoughts to obtain the hidden and sober picture.
Last edited by paul on Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by dhammacoustic » Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:02 am

Sati (or samma-sati) is continuous remembrance and comtemplation of the Dhamma.
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by Dmytro » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:07 am

Hi,

You may find useful a detailed disccusion of this term in the thread:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p387615

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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:43 am

"Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been gathered into the village, a cowherd would look after his cows: While resting under the shade of a tree or out in the open, he simply keeps himself mindful of 'those cows.' In the same way, I simply kept myself mindful of 'those mental qualities.'"
The above is from the Dmytro's link.
In this regard how can I relate " when all the crops have been gathered into the village" to my meditation?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by Dmytro » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:28 pm

SarathW wrote:
"Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been gathered into the village, a cowherd would look after his cows: While resting under the shade of a tree or out in the open, he simply keeps himself mindful of 'those cows.' In the same way, I simply kept myself mindful of 'those mental qualities.'"
The above is from the Dmytro's link.
In this regard how can I relate " when all the crops have been gathered into the village" to my meditation?
When there's nothing requiring immediate effort happening in the range of the Satipatthana you have chosen (e.g. the body), you just continue to keep this Satipatthana in mind, watching over the "cows" in this range.

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Aloka
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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by Aloka » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:05 am

Ajahn Jayasaro talks about the meaning of sati in this 4 minute video:





:anjali:

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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by _anicca_ » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:12 am

Sati is remembering to bring your mind back to the present moment.

Many dhamma teachers make the distinction between mindfulness (sati) and concentration.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:21 am

It pays to listen to Satipathana Sutta to refresh your mind.
Audio file.

http://www.suttareadings.net/audio/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by Spiny Norman » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:55 am

I think sati is multi-layered, but includes an ongoing awareness of what is arising at the sense-bases. This is partly to provide the "raw data" for investigation ( dhamma vicaya ), the second factor of enlightenment.
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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by Cittasanto » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:33 am

Hi
I have not watched the video, However, Sati is not staying in the present moment, it is memory, recollection, and keeping the object in mind. The object can be what is happening in this very moment (sampajanna section of the Satipatthana sutta), but it is not confined to keeping only this moment in mind/staying in the present moment.

In Truth
Cittasanto
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by sandun Wanniarachchi » Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:26 pm

Cittasanto wrote:Hi
I have not watched the video, However, Sati is not staying in the present moment, it is memory, recollection, and keeping the object in mind. The object can be what is happening in this very moment (sampajanna section of the Satipatthana sutta), but it is not confined to keeping only this moment in mind/staying in the present moment.

In Truth
Cittasanto
“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the world, the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, might there be the world or the description of the world?”

“Where there is the eye, Samiddhi, where there are forms, eye-consciousness, things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the world exists or the description of the world.

“Where there is the ear …..

“Where there is no eye, Samiddhi, no forms, no eye-consciousness, no things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the world does not exist nor any description of the world.

" Where there is no ear,.....

S.N. 35.66

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Re: Sati is not the stay in the present moment!

Post by R1111 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:17 am

sati is more like being reminded of whats being experienced. Mind is sort of always with present moment because it preceeds everything but its grasping without satti. present moment arises and ceases, a moment of pain or seeing, its there and it ceases, then there is the next moment of sati or clear thought if conditions are present it seems. so technically its not staying in any moment, more like moments where we remind ourselves of what is being experienced.

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