Question about labeling

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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lotus flower
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Question about labeling

Post by lotus flower »

Hi i have questions about the labeling. I hope Bhikkhu Pesala will also reply in this topic. So i practice Mahasi vipassana. It is clear to me we must notice the rising and falling of the abdomen at the beginning of the meditation. "Rising" "Falling". But what we should do later? Should we leave the noticing of rising and falling? If yes then when we should leave the noticing of rising and falling? After how many minutes? We start the meditation we notice "rising" "falling" how many minutes later we should leave the noticing of rising and falling? I don't see about this question in books. Thank you for your answer.. I asked this question because i saw an interesting post on another forum http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/ind ... icseen#new" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He/ she wrote in that topic: "The labelling is something to help you when your concentration is not that good. I usually try to drop it at a certain stage of the meditation and just focus on the sensation or the knowing. "
Last edited by lotus flower on Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:
Pinetree
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by Pinetree »

Shortly, you only leave the rising and the falling if something interrupts you or distracts the mind.

But it's important to note the rising/falling in a continuous manner, for the full length of the breath. So it will be
riii- sii -ing - faa - liii - ing

while the mind stays with movement from the beginning of the abdomen expanding and all the way until the abdomen has fully expanded as result of the inbreath (after which follows the falling).

(This is a mistake I made in the beginning - I was only noting the beginning of the movement as rising, then noting nothing, then the beginning of the falling, then noting nothing.)
But what we should do later? Should we leave the noticing of rising and falling? If yes then when we should leave the noticing of rising and falling?
For example, if such questions arise during your meditation, you should note them as: "Questioning" or "Wondering" or "Doubting".

I practice after this booklet, by Ven. Yuttadhammo:

http://www.sirimangalo.org/text/how-to-meditate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(there is a PDF to download in few languages besides English)

The way I practice is:

- the movement of the abdomen is the default object of meditation

- so first, I send the mind to the abdomen, and notice the movement - rising / falling

- if there are no distractions, I stay at the abdomen

- if my mind becomes aware of something else (a thought, a sound, a mental image, etc.), I note the distraction, for example - thinking, hearing, seeing, feeling, pain, etc.

Or bored :)
(I remember you said you are bored sometimes in another thread)

- after noting, I return to the abdomen and stay there for seconds or minutes, until the next distraction arises

-----

There are more details about noting in the booklet and the FAQ on the Sirimangalo Center site.

http://www.sirimangalo.org/frequently-a ... questions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is also this video, but it's a bit old and outdated, you find more information in the booklet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH2sEqrCza4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Pinetree on Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lotus flower
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by lotus flower »

Pinetree wrote:
- after noting, I return to the abdomen and stay there for seconds or minutes, until the next distraction arises
I understand what you wrote but i don't really understand this. At this stage do you still noting the rising and falling? So you don't leave the noting?
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:
Pinetree
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by Pinetree »

Yes, still note.

Hmm, not sure if I understand your question correctly ...

You never ever leave the noting:

- first you note rising and falling

- then note whatever other object is in your mind (at this time, you stop noting rising and falling, and focus on the new meditation object - thought or feeling, etc instead)

- then go back to noting the rising and falling (after the source of the distraction is gone or the mind loses interest in it)

- as soon as a new distraction arises, you note that, then go back to note rising and falling

So the way it goes is:

- riising - falliing - risiing - falliing - thinking - thinking - risiing - faaling - rising - faaling - hearing - hearing - rising - falling - tension - tension - tension - tension - tension - riising - falling

And it goes like that for 10 minutes or 30 minutes or how ever long you meditate. Also, the recommendation is that you always alternate walking and sitting meditation. So, if you want to meditate for 1 hour, you could do 30 walking, then 30 sitting, or 15 walking - 15 sitting - 15 walking - 15 sitting.

I remember Ven. Yuttadhammo once saying like : "In our tradition, if one isn't noting, they aren't meditating". Noting is an important tool for cultivating and developing the mind through mindfulness.
Last edited by Pinetree on Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lotus flower
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by lotus flower »

Pinetree wrote:Hmm, not sure if I understand your question correctly.

You never leave the noting:

- first you note rising and falling

- then note whatever other object is in your mind (at this time, you stop noting rising and falling, and focus on the new meditation object - thought or feeling, etc instead)

- then go back to noting the rising and falling (after the source of the distraction is gone or the mind loses interest in it)

So the way it goes is:

- riising - falliing - risiing - falliing - thinking - thinking - risiing - faaling - rising - faaling - hearing - hearing - rising - falling - tension - tension - tension - tension - tension - riising - falling

I remember Ven. Yuttadhammo once saying like : "In our tradition, if one isn't noting, they aren't meditating".
Thank you, i understand. I asked this question because i saw an interesting post on another forum http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/ind ... icseen#new" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He/ she wrote in that topic: "The labelling is something to help you when your concentration is not that good. I usually try to drop it at a certain stage of the meditation and just focus on the sensation or the knowing. "
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:
Pinetree
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by Pinetree »


He/ she wrote in that topic: "The labelling is something to help you when your concentration is not that good. I usually try to drop it at a certain stage of the meditation and just focus on the sensation or the knowing. "
According to what I was taught, this is incorrect practice.

And from my personal experience:

Yes, when the concentration is really bad, noting is like a cane or a crutch that supports me (and if I didn't have noting, I'd be lost in thoughts or feelings or whatever).

But once the concentration improves, noting keeps cultivating the mindfulness and keeps on going. And the knowledge of the insight gets more refined and more deep and the concentration can grow even more.

And once you stop noting there is always the chance that the next distraction that arises will carry your mind all over the place (and unless you are enlightened, distractions will happen).

Another danger is that of attachment to a pleasant state that will hinder your progress. For example, on that forum, there is talk about a state of "pure awareness".

Unless it's nibanna, that mental state will change to something else and that change should be noted.

Also, if it's not nibanna, that state is flawed somehow - there is either ignorance or greed or anger, and if we don't note, we won't notice those, losing that opportunity to improve ourselves.
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mikenz66
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by mikenz66 »

It should be noted that the Mahasi approach is only one possible meditation technique. Some other approaches do not use labelling at all, or only use it occasionally. So there is no one "correct" answer. I say this to avoid pointless discussion about whether or not labelling is "correct". None of the reputable approaches are either "correct" or "incorrect". Some suit some people more than others.

Having said that, if you are using the Mahasi approach as is it generally taught (which I what I do) then I agree with Pinetree: keep using the labelling unless phenomena are being noticed so fast that it becomes impossible. Ideally, you should be labelling everything that you notice. Not only the rising and falling but also other phenomena, such as itching, hearing, wanting to stop meditating and do something else... Of course, it's not easy to do that, so you generally have to just label the most obvious phenomena.

As I understand it (both theoretically and experientially) the aim is to make your attention very sharp and quick, so that when something important arises you can see and understand it clearly. I have had some experience with getting lazy and not keeping my attention sharp enough, being content with the peaceful state that I've developed. Then, something interesting arises and I'm not able to really understand it. because I can't clearly see it.

So, keep alert!

:anjali:
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lotus flower
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by lotus flower »

Thank you Mikenz and Pinetree. That person practice the Mahasi technique too. But i believe his/her practice is really incorrect. So thanks for the confirm.
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:
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mikenz66
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by mikenz66 »

lotus flower wrote:Thank you Mikenz and Pinetree. That person practice the Mahasi technique too. But i believe his/her practice is really incorrect. So thanks for the confirm.
I'm hesitant to say any of these things are "incorrect". For some practitioners labelling doesn't work so well, and for some purposes it is not so useful. For example, for developing strong absorption, where it is generally more effective to just be aware of the object in a general way, rather than the details. It's also less effective if you are trying to focus mainly on mind, mind objects, or awareness.

I think that it is best to follow the instructions of a particular teacher reasonably closely until you have a
a good understanding of what the approach you are using is aiming to achieve. If you mix advice from different teachers, it can lead to confusion, as they may seem contradictory.

:anjali:
Mike
Pinetree
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by Pinetree »

For example, for developing strong absorption, where it is generally more effective to just be aware of the object in a general way, rather than the details.
Labeling isn't about the detail of awareness, so I don't see the assumption that if I'm labeling, I must be seeing all the little details.

And indeed, trying to catch every little thing can make meditation difficult and is not recommended. We need to keep a balance between effort, concentration, mindfulness, wisdom, etc.

On the other hand, generally Vipassana and specially Mahasi do focus on keeping contact with the changing flow of experience, so by becoming too general, that might get closer to Samatha.
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mikenz66
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by mikenz66 »

Pinetree wrote: Labeling isn't about the detail of awareness, so I don't see the assumption that if I'm labeling, I must be seeing all the little details.
Of course, you could use it in various ways, but Mahasi teachers generally instruct to see as much detail as possible, and the labelling is very useful in that regard.
Pinetree wrote: And indeed, trying to catch every little thing can make meditation difficult and is not recommended. We need to keep a balance between effort, concentration, mindfulness, wisdom, etc.
My experience is that more practice makes it possible to catch more details. I don't see any downside to seeing more detail, if the aim is to allow wisdom to arise. Of course, "trying" too much can be counter-productive in any such endeavour.
Pinetree wrote: On the other hand, generally Vipassana and specially Mahasi do focus on keeping contact with the changing flow of experience, so by becoming too general, that might get closer to Samatha.
That's certainly my experience. If I just follow the walking and the abdominal motion in a general way, I can build up a lot of concentration and calm. And that's a rather attractive option. The calm certainly has some positive effects on my mind, But I've found that, having got that calm, it's easy for me to become a little too satisfied and lazy to make any more progress.

:anjali:
Mike
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Goofaholix
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by Goofaholix »

lotus flower wrote:He/ she wrote in that topic: "The labelling is something to help you when your concentration is not that good. I usually try to drop it at a certain stage of the meditation and just focus on the sensation or the knowing. "
Yes this answer is correct. Labeling is just an aid to help keep you involved in the process, to help concentration, to help see things objectively.

When you feel concentration is good just drop labeling, you can always pick it up again if things go to custard. Then you are left with noting, which is just a subtle knowing of each object and experience as it arises, as you get good at it this becomes more and more automatic and subtle.

The same is true of rising and falling, when you start out this will be the primary object, when something else arises you note it then return to the rising and falling, however these are not distractions as stated but an important part of the meditation. As you get confident the rising and falling becomes secondary and you'll put more effort into observing everything else that arises just returning to the rising and falling either when you get lost or nothing much seems to be happening.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
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lotus flower
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by lotus flower »

Thank you. So there are different answers. I hope Bhikkhu Pesala also will reply in this topic.
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:
Pinetree
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Re: Question about labeling

Post by Pinetree »

The same is true of rising and falling, when you start out this will be the primary object, when something else arises you note it then return to the rising and falling, however these are not distractions as stated but an important part of the meditation. As you get confident the rising and falling becomes secondary and you'll put more effort into observing everything else that arises just returning to the rising and falling either when you get lost or nothing much seems to be happening.
That's a good point and I agree. I can see that my words can give the wrong impression that watching the abdomen is the important thing, and everything else is secondary, just a distraction, and of no importance.

While, of course, the insight meditation is about knowing the mind, not about knowing the abdomen. Even if simply knowing the abdomen can lead to insight about the nature of reality and our experience of it.

Just a simple distraction would be events completely unrelated to the meditation, such as a sound we hear on the street, or maybe feel some movement inside the intestines, or seeing the light of a passing by car, etc.

And even for such events, we could have mental states arising, for example, if we find that the mind becomes interested or reacts to such events, or there is lack of concentration, that should also be noted.
I don't see any downside to seeing more detail, if the aim is to allow wisdom to arise.
Well, I was replying to your comment that in certain cases, there is not need for many details. At least this is how I understood it.

A possible downside would be lack of concentration with increasing confusion/distraction. Great thing that it didn't happen to you, but some meditators complain about this, especially in the beginning.
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