mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

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nintendo
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mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by nintendo » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:30 am

What is the difference between mahasi vipassana meditation and goenka vipassana meditation, which is better

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tiltbillings
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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:56 am

nintendo wrote:What is the difference between mahasi vipassana meditation and goenka vipassana meditation, which is better
The difference is the "technique." Both cultivate concentration and mindfulness. It is not a matter of which is better; rather, it is a matter of which is a good fit for the person in question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by nintendo » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:
nintendo wrote:What is the difference between mahasi vipassana meditation and goenka vipassana meditation, which is better
The difference is the "technique." Both cultivate concentration and mindfulness. It is not a matter of which is better; rather, it is a matter of which is a good fit for the person in question.
In goenka's vipassana focus on tip of the uuper lip or entrance of the nasal region, but in mahasi vipassana focus on falling and raising of abdomen, focus on nose create pressure on upper nose2

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tiltbillings
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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:31 am

nintendo wrote:focus on nose create pressure on upper nose2
Not necessarily. As was sugested elsewhere to you, you may be trying too hard.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by martinfrank » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:37 am

An open discussion of issues regarding Goenka meditation is not allowed on Dhamma Wheel. Critical post will be deleted and authors will be disciplined.
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.

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tiltbillings
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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:06 am

martinfrank wrote:An open discussion of issues regarding Goenka meditation is not allowed on Dhamma Wheel. Critical post will be deleted and authors will be disciplined.
And, of course, this is not true.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by martinfrank » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:52 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
martinfrank wrote:An open discussion of issues regarding Goenka meditation is not allowed on Dhamma Wheel. Critical post will be deleted and authors will be disciplined.
And, of course, this is not true.
Do you mean only my critical posts will be deleted? I am 64 years old and not used to have my posts deleted and be treated like an uppity teenager simply because I dare ask questions. Maybe you or Ben could answer my questions.

1. Who are at present the teachers of the Goenkaji System? Is there anywhere on the Internet available a list of teachers with their qualifications and some bio information? Are there any Buddhist monks or nuns among them? If not why not?

2. Is the Goenkaji System part of Theravada Buddhism or is it a separate sect? Are Goenkaji's followers Buddhists? Are they encouraged to become monks or nuns? Did Goenkaji consider himself a Buddhists? Did he have a Buddhist funeral?

3. What is the goal of Goenkaji meditation? Is it the same as the goal of satipatthana meditation?

After answering yourself these questions you will understand what is the difference between Mahasi Vipassana and Goenka Vipassana.
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by daverupa » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:25 pm

  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by robertk » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:27 pm

I am pretty sure mr. Goenka and his assistant teachers consider themselves Buddhist. As for his funeral wasn't it a state one in Myanmar, with many monks in attendance, or at least there was a ceremony after the official funeral in his honor.
There is at least one monk who is an assistant teacher.

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:50 pm

martinfrank wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
martinfrank wrote:An open discussion of issues regarding Goenka meditation is not allowed on Dhamma Wheel. Critical post will be deleted and authors will be disciplined.
And, of course, this is not true.
Do you mean only my critical posts will be deleted? I am 64 years old and not used to have my posts deleted and be treated like an uppity teenager simply because I dare ask questions. Maybe you or Ben could answer my questions.
I am 66 years old -- 48 of those years as a Buddhist, and I know an ax-grinder when I see one.
1. Who are at present the teachers of the Goenkaji System? Is there anywhere on the Internet available a list of teachers with their qualifications and some bio information? Are there any Buddhist monks or nuns among them? If not why not?

2. Is the Goenkaji System part of Theravada Buddhism or is it a separate sect? Are Goenkaji's followers Buddhists? Are they encouraged to become monks or nuns? Did Goenkaji consider himself a Buddhists? Did he have a Buddhist funeral?
S.N. Goenka was part of the Burmese lay-Buddhist movement. Monastics certainly practiced that style of vipassana, being taught by laymen. Being a monastic, however, does not, by the robes alone, make one a better, more knowledgeable Buddhist. You are looking for outward signs. One might point to the VRI founded by Goenka-ji as an outward sign, which is rather significant. It is no more a separate sect than is the Thai forest movement. As for the structure of Goenka's organization, I'll defer to Ben.
3. What is the goal of Goenkaji meditation? Is it the same as the goal of satipatthana meditation?
Awakening and yes.
After answering yourself these questions you will understand what is the difference between Mahasi Vipassana and Goenka Vipassana.
While the Mahasi Sayadaw practice has been founded and promoted by monastics, monastics are hardly the only recognized teachers of the method. It is a method, like the U Ba Khin/Goenka method, that was aimed at both laity and monastics.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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martinfrank
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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by martinfrank » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:18 pm

What ax should I have to grind? You're just not eager to answer my questions.
1. Who are at present the teachers of the Goenkaji System? Is there anywhere on the Internet available a list of teachers with their qualifications and some bio information? Are there any Buddhist monks or nuns among them? If not why not?

2. Is the Goenkaji System part of Theravada Buddhism or is it a separate sect? Are Goenkaji's followers Buddhists? Are they encouraged to become monks or nuns? Did Goenkaji consider himself a Buddhists? Did he have a Buddhist funeral?

3. What is the goal of Goenkaji meditation? Is it the same as the goal of satipatthana meditation?
Where is the list of the teachers and their qualifications? I didn't ask about Assistant Teachers; I asked about fully qualified teachers. Is there anybody who studied at a Buddhist University? Monks or nuns of many years? Can you give the names of five full teachers which can be looked up in the Internet or are these names secret? Where can I find information about who are the heads of the organization e.g. for the US or Europe? Is it all secret? Is it a cult?

I believe it is legitimate to ask whether Goenkaji was Buddhist or not. Google "Goenka Funeral" and "Buddhist Funeral". You might Google what the majority of Indian Buddhists thinks of Goenkaji... just Google "Goenka Ambedkar". If I read people writing about the "Goenka Sangha", saying that "Goenka was a Buddha", Jack Kornfield calling him "Ven. S. N. Goenka" am I not allowed to have doubts?

Goenkaji answering the question:
Do I have to be a Buddhist to practice Vipassana?

People from many religions and no religion have found the meditation course helpful and beneficial. Vipassana is an art of living, a way of life. While it is the essence of what the Buddha taught, it is not a religion; rather, it is the cultivation of human values leading to a life which is good for oneself and good for others.
https://www.dhamma.org/en/about/qanda

Vipassana is not the essence of what Lord Buddha taught. The Four Noble Truths are the essence of what Lord Buddha taught. Lord Buddha never suggested people could be e.g. Jains and his followers at the same time. I agree that meditation is helpful for people and contributes to a happy life but this is not the goal of Buddhist meditation.

THE QUESTION IS

Is the Goenka System teaching Buddhist Meditation to the millions as his followers say?

OR

Is it watering down Lord Buddha's Teaching to a way of life for lay people and confusing millions about what Lord Buddha taught?
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:47 pm

I've only gone to one Goenka retreat, but what was taught there seemed to me to be a basic Theravada meditation technique, along with basic talks on the Dhamma. The details are different from the Mahasi approach that I usually use but both build concentration and mindfulness, and develop insight into one's experience.

Vipassana, or "insight" is, actually, what the Buddhist path is about.

One could argue with the label "vipassana meditation", but that is a different issue.

:anjali:
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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by MisterRunon » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:00 pm

I've been mostly with Goenka's style for a while now, and I find many things about it unsatisfactory so.. I plan on trying out the Mahasi technique soon. That's just me though.
robertk wrote:I am pretty sure mr. Goenka and his assistant teachers consider themselves Buddhist. As for his funeral wasn't it a state one in Myanmar, with many monks in attendance, or at least there was a ceremony after the official funeral in his honor.
There is at least one monk who is an assistant teacher.
I'm not so sure about that.. I think he kind of has a different definition for what a Buddhist is. In his video discourses, he tries to emphasize how he is not teaching Buddhism. I think his ATs also don't know that much about the Suttas.
nintendo wrote:Goenka lineage has so many assistant teachers, they are all tape recorder operators, no enlightened teachers are there
And how do you know this? Actually, many people believe John Beary, one of the most qualified teachers for Goenka, to be at a very high stage.

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:11 pm

martinfrank wrote:
I believe it is legitimate to ask whether Goenkaji was Buddhist or not. Google "Goenka Funeral" and "Buddhist Funeral".
I got 58,000 hits for "Goenka funeral", but I'm not sure what conclusion you would have us draw from them. If you mean to imply that if Goenka didn’t have a Buddhist funeral —i.e. one conducted by the bhikkhusangha— then he couldn’t have been a Buddhist, then I believe the premise is faulty. This can be seen from the fact that the Buddha himself wasn’t interested in having a “Buddhist funeral”. When Ānanda asked him what “we” (i.e. the bhikkhusangha) should do with the Tathāgata’s remains, the reply was that the bhikkhus should stay out of it and leave funeral arrangements to brahmin and kshatriya householders.
On retreat and offline May 22 - July 10.

„Sedem solitariam, cubitum solitarium
solitarius colens non segnis,
solitarius semet ipse domans
in sylva extrema delectatus sit.“

(Dhammapada 305. tr. Viggo Fausbøll. 1855)

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by MisterRunon » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:23 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
martinfrank wrote:
I believe it is legitimate to ask whether Goenkaji was Buddhist or not. Google "Goenka Funeral" and "Buddhist Funeral".
I got 58,000 hits for "Goenka funeral", but I'm not sure what conclusion you would have us draw from them. If you mean to imply that if Goenka didn’t have a Buddhist funeral —i.e. one conducted by the bhikkhusangha— then he couldn’t have been a Buddhist, then I believe the premise is faulty. This can be seen from the fact that the Buddha himself wasn’t interested in having a “Buddhist funeral”. When Ānanda asked him what “we” (i.e. the bhikkhusangha) should do with the Tathāgata’s remains, the reply was that the bhikkhus should stay out of it and leave funeral arrangements to brahmin and kshatriya householders.
I think Goenka's point was that, during the time of the Buddha, there was no such thing as a Buddhist.

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:28 pm

martinfrank wrote:You might Google what the majority of Indian Buddhists thinks of Goenkaji... just Google "Goenka Ambedkar".
I know from several stays at the Ambedkarite temple in Wolverhampton, England, that there are some Dalit Buddhists who are enamoured with Goenka and some who are not. If you name just about any prominent figure in the Indian Buddhist world, you’ll find Dalits similarly divided over him or her. I don’t think the majority view of these people can be reliably determined from Google. Presumably your knowledge of the majority view is derived from some carefully-conducted opinon poll, right? If so, it would help if you'd post a link to it.
On retreat and offline May 22 - July 10.

„Sedem solitariam, cubitum solitarium
solitarius colens non segnis,
solitarius semet ipse domans
in sylva extrema delectatus sit.“

(Dhammapada 305. tr. Viggo Fausbøll. 1855)

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by pilgrim » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:13 am

Goenka does what most other Buddhist teachers or monks do, just on a larger scale. One also need not be a Buddhist to sit at the many retreats in Thailand or Myanmar too. What Goenka does is to point out this policy clearly - that his meditation teachings are made available to everyone. For the duration of the course one needs to take the 3 refuges and the 5 precepts but one need not convert to Buddhism after the course. I see this as his particular innovation.

Whether one chooses to be a Buddhist or not is not his primary concern. I find this attitude common in almost all meditation centres in Asia. In doing this, Goenka succeeded in attracting large numbers of people to his courses. Granted, many or most do not eventually become Buddhists, but simply by the sheer number of students, Goenka has been more successful in bringing new people to Buddhism than many monks or other teachers. (Eg. Of the 15 residents of Abhayagiri monastery in USA, 3 of them stated in their bios that their interest in Buddhism started off with Goenka retreats)

Ps. Among the new Buddhists of India, Goenka's technique is the default method of meditation.
It is understandable that many Dalits dislike Goenka . Their objectives are quite different. The Dalit conversions are fueled by political and social expediency where numbers count, while Goenka felt this had little to do with the true purpose of Dhamma practice.

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by SarathW » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:47 am

nintendo wrote:Goenka lineage has so many assistant teachers, they are all tape recorder operators, no enlightened teachers are there
You don't have to be enlightened to be a Dhamma teacher.
I acquired most of my knowledge by reading books and listening to recordings.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:34 am

martinfrank wrote:What ax should I have to grind? You're just not eager to answer my questions.
I did answer your questions.
Where is the list of the teachers and their qualifications? I didn't ask about Assistant Teachers; I asked about fully qualified teachers. Is there anybody who studied at a Buddhist University? Monks or nuns of many years? Can you give the names of five full teachers which can be looked up in the Internet or are these names secret? Where can I find information about who are the heads of the organization e.g. for the US or Europe? Is it all secret? Is it a cult?
Write to them and ask these questions.
I believe it is legitimate to ask whether Goenkaji was Buddhist or not. Google "Goenka Funeral" and "Buddhist Funeral". You might Google what the majority of Indian Buddhists thinks of Goenkaji... just Google "Goenka Ambedkar". If I read people writing about the "Goenka Sangha", saying that "Goenka was a Buddha", Jack Kornfield calling him "Ven. S. N. Goenka" am I not allowed to have doubts?
A lot of people say a lot of things about various monastics and lay teachers; some of it out gratitude for the teachings they have received and some of it out of poltical reasons and some of because they do not agree with the person in question. The issue of Goenkji's funeral and Ambedkar have been addressed above.
Goenkaji answering the question:
Do I have to be a Buddhist to practice Vipassana?
And you do not have to be a Buddhist to do a Mahasi Sayadaw retreat. Pilgrim has neatly addressed this issue.
Vipassana is not the essence of what Lord Buddha taught. The Four Noble Truths are the essence of what Lord Buddha taught.
It seems you have a rather limited idea of what vipassana practice is, given that such a practice, which includes the teachings in addition to the practice of meditation certainly includes the Four Enobling Truths.
THE QUESTION IS

Is the Goenka System teaching Buddhist Meditation to the millions as his followers say?

OR

Is it watering down Lord Buddha's Teaching to a way of life for lay people and confusing millions about what Lord Buddha taught?
The first.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: mahasi vipassana vs goenka vipassana

Post by badscooter » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:45 am

As for monastics, venerable Analayao stated that he practices the Goenka method as one of his meditation practices.

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