Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

pegembara wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

pegembara wrote:Sati without sampajanna is only half the equation. . . .

Your point with these quotes is?

Judgement free awareness would be like blissing out under the Bodhi tree and sampajanna would be thinking, "Who can I benefit benefit from this discovery?"
Judgement free awareness would be like walking into the path of a raging cow and getting gored. With sampajanna one can avoid such problems.

It is not enough to just see, hear, smell etc. See David's comment.
Don't forget the active component.

Mr Man wrote:The "judgment-free awareness" still needs to be taken within a context and to practice it is not easy.

Whatever there is that arises in the mind, just watch it. Let go of it. Don't even wish to be rid of thoughts. Then the mind will reach its natural state. No discriminating between good and bad, hot and cold, fast and slow. No me and no you, no self at all. Just what there is. When you walk on alms-round, no need to do anything special. Simply walk and see what there is. No need to cling to isolation or seclusion. Wherever you are, know yourself by being natural and watching. If doubts arise, watch them come
and go. It' s very simple. Hold on to nothing. It is as though you are walking down a road. Periodically you will run into obstacles. When you meet defilements, just see them and just overcome them by letting
go of them. don't think about the obstacles you have passed already . Don't worry about those you have not yet seen. Stick to the present. Don't be concerned about the length of the road or about the destination. Everything is changing. Whatever you pass, do not cling to it. Eventually the mind will reach its natural balance where practice is automatic. All things will come and go of themselves. (Teachings of Ajahn Chah p. 76)

At this comparatively advanced stage satipatthana is practised for its own sake. With this shift in attitude, the goal and the act of meditation being to merge into one, since awareness and understanding are cultivated for the sake of developing ever more awareness and understanding. The practice of satipatthan becomes "effortless effort", so to speak, divested of goal-orientation and expectation. It is preciesly this way of contemplating tha tin turn enables one to proceed independently, "without clinging to anything in the world" of expiernece, as stipulated in the final part of the refrain"

So, Ajahns Chah and Munindo haven't a clue as to what they are talking about.

Q: Have you ever looked at the Altar Sutra of the 6th Patriarch, Hui Neng?

Answer: Hui Neng's wisdom is very keen. It is very profound teaching,not easy for beginners to understand. But if you practise with our discipline and with patience, if you practise not-clinging, you will eventually understand. Once I had a disciple who stayed in a grass-roofed hut. It rained often that rainy season and one day a strong wind blew off half the roof. He did not bother to fix it, just let it rain in. Several days passed and I asked him about his hut. He said he was practising not-clinging. This is not-clinging without wisdom. It is about the same as the equanimity of a water buffalo. If you live a good life and live simply, if you are patient and unselfish, you will understand the wisdom of Hui Neng.

http://www.buddhanet.net/bodhiny2.htm

pegembara wrote: With sampajanna one can avoid such problems.

Spiny Norman wrote:

pegembara wrote: With sampajanna one can avoid such problems.

But isn't sampajanna a type of judgement? Wise judgement, anyway. So perhaps the point is not rushing to judgement, not reacting to immediate experience?

tiltbillings wrote:

Spiny Norman wrote:

pegembara wrote: With sampajanna one can avoid such problems.

But isn't sampajanna a type of judgement? Wise judgement, anyway. So perhaps the point is not rushing to judgement, not reacting to immediate experience?

The primary context, it seems to me, of the two OP quotes is meditation practice.

Spiny Norman wrote:
Certainly the first one, though I think the second has application both on and off the cushion.

Mindfulness means paying attention in a particular way; On purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally (Jon Kabat-Zinn)
http://www.wildmind.org/applied/daily-l ... indfulness

Rogers asserted that the most important factor in successful therapy is the relational climate created by the therapist's attitude to their client. He specified three interrelated core conditions:

Congruence - the willingness to transparently relate to clients without hiding behind a professional or personal facade.
Unconditional Positive Regard - the therapist offers an acceptance and prizing for their client for who he or she is without conveying disapproving feelings, actions or characteristics and demonstrating a willingness to attentively listen without interruption, judgement or giving advice.
Empathy - the therapist communicates their desire to understand and appreciate their clients perspective.

Ven. Mālunkyaputta wrote: Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,
Attending to the pleasing sign,
One experiences it with infatuated mind
And remains tightly holding to it.

Many feelings flourish within,
Originating from the visible form,
Covetousness and annoyance as well
By which one's mind becomes disturbed.
For one who accumulates suffering thus
Nibbāna is said to be far away.

... [the same for heard a sound, smelt an odour, enjoyed a taste, felt a contact, known an object] ...

When, firmly mindful, one sees a form,
One is not inflamed by lust for forms;
One experiences it with dispassionate mind
And does not remain holding it tightly.

One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering] is exhausted, not built up.
For one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbāna is said to be close by.

kirk5a wrote:The OP quotations could be seen as an "exhortation in brief" which have an "in detail" explication that helps more precisely draw out the meaning and resolve wrong ways of understanding what was said. The section below is how Ven. Mālunkyaputta described his understanding of instructions given to him by the Buddha, which are identical to those given to Bahiya. (Since the "Bahiya instructions" have been held out as what, in the suttas, would correspond to this practice of "judgment-free awareness")

Ven. Mālunkyaputta wrote: Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,
Attending to the pleasing sign,
One experiences it with infatuated mind
And remains tightly holding to it.

Many feelings flourish within,
Originating from the visible form,
Covetousness and annoyance as well
By which one's mind becomes disturbed.
For one who accumulates suffering thus
Nibbāna is said to be far away.

... [the same for heard a sound, smelt an odour, enjoyed a taste, felt a contact, known an object] ...

When, firmly mindful, one sees a form,
One is not inflamed by lust for forms;
One experiences it with dispassionate mind
And does not remain holding it tightly.

One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering] is exhausted, not built up.
For one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbāna is said to be close by.

- SN 35.95 BB trans.