I think this is the heart of the controversy. In terms of virtue and concentration, Bahiya's practice was already extremely advanced and the concerns he raises at the start of the Sutta suggest some relatively minor holes in his discernment. The practice the Buddha recommends to him shouldn't be attempted without solid foundational skills in virtue and concentration, and there are better and worse ways to develop those skills so judgement of better and worse is useful at earlier stages of the path. Maybe I'm just listening to too much Thanissaro, though.tiltbillings wrote:What the Ajahns are talking about is a mature practice.
judgment-free awareness
Re: judgment-free awareness
Re: judgment-free awareness
I've appreciated what Ven. Thanissaro has said about the secular concept of mindfulness as "nonjudgmental awareness of the present moment." I think he's tried to impart the idea that samma sati does involve active memory, and some measure of active evaluation or judgment to allow the present moment awareness to be useful or productive toward elimination of defilements. I feel that when folks in the secular mindfulness community discuss this 'nonjudgmental awareness', it may have more to do with nonreactivity to arising thoughts, vs nonjudgments or nonevaluation, unless the intent is really to develop absolute nonresponse to these products of mind. This nonreactivity may have a beneficial effect, but may do little to help eradicate the root causes of the greedy, angry, traumatic or deluded thought. To me, this is what separates staring at a wall for five hours and watching things come and go, from doing the active work of calming the mind and cultivating insight as to the arising of these causes and conditions of suffering. Maybe what I'm saying has more to do with semantics than anything, but such a difference exists between secular sati and samma sati, and some need for this distinction to be discussed.
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Re: judgment-free awareness
I have no idea of what you mean here.fivebells wrote:I think this is the heart of the controversy. In terms of virtue and concentration, Bahiya's practice was already extremely advanced and the concerns he raises at the start of the Sutta suggest some relatively minor holes in his discernment. The practice the Buddha recommends to him shouldn't be attempted without solid foundational skills in virtue and concentration, and there are better and worse ways to develop those skills so judgement of better and worse is useful at earlier stages of the path. Maybe I'm just listening to too much Thanissaro, though.tiltbillings wrote:What the Ajahns are talking about is a mature practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
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Re: judgment-free awareness
" ...may do little to help eradicate the root causes of the greedy..." So, basically the purpose of meditation practice is to get a perception that you can then think about as a way of gaining insight into it.BuddhaSoup wrote:I've appreciated what Ven. Thanissaro has said about the secular concept of mindfulness as "nonjudgmental awareness of the present moment." I think he's tried to impart the idea that samma sati does involve active memory, and some measure of active evaluation or judgment to allow the present moment awareness to be useful or productive toward elimination of defilements. I feel that when folks in the secular mindfulness community discuss this 'nonjudgmental awareness', it may have more to do with nonreactivity to arising thoughts, vs nonjudgments or nonevaluation, unless the intent is really to develop absolute nonresponse to these products of mind. This nonreactivity may have a beneficial effect, but may do little to help eradicate the root causes of the greedy, angry, traumatic or deluded thought. To me, this is what separates staring at a wall for five hours and watching things come and go, from doing the active work of calming the mind and cultivating insight as to the arising of these causes and conditions of suffering. Maybe what I'm saying has more to do with semantics than anything, but such a difference exists between secular sati and samma sati, and some need for this distinction to be discussed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: judgment-free awareness
Agreed.BuddhaSoup wrote:I've appreciated what Ven. Thanissaro has said about the secular concept of mindfulness as "nonjudgmental awareness of the present moment." I think he's tried to impart the idea that samma sati does involve active memory, and some measure of active evaluation or judgment to allow the present moment awareness to be useful or productive toward elimination of defilements. I feel that when folks in the secular mindfulness community discuss this 'nonjudgmental awareness', it may have more to do with nonreactivity to arising thoughts, vs nonjudgments or nonevaluation, unless the intent is really to develop absolute nonresponse to these products of mind. This nonreactivity may have a beneficial effect, but may do little to help eradicate the root causes of the greedy, angry, traumatic or deluded thought. To me, this is what separates staring at a wall for five hours and watching things come and go, from doing the active work of calming the mind and cultivating insight as to the arising of these causes and conditions of suffering. Maybe what I'm saying has more to do with semantics than anything, but such a difference exists between secular sati and samma sati, and some need for this distinction to be discussed.
- retrofuturist
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Re: judgment-free awareness
Greetings,
Retro.
Agreed.BuddhaSoup wrote:I've appreciated what Ven. Thanissaro has said about the secular concept of mindfulness as "nonjudgmental awareness of the present moment." I think he's tried to impart the idea that samma sati does involve active memory, and some measure of active evaluation or judgment to allow the present moment awareness to be useful or productive toward elimination of defilements. I feel that when folks in the secular mindfulness community discuss this 'nonjudgmental awareness', it may have more to do with nonreactivity to arising thoughts, vs nonjudgments or nonevaluation, unless the intent is really to develop absolute nonresponse to these products of mind. This nonreactivity may have a beneficial effect, but may do little to help eradicate the root causes of the greedy, angry, traumatic or deluded thought. To me, this is what separates staring at a wall for five hours and watching things come and go, from doing the active work of calming the mind and cultivating insight as to the arising of these causes and conditions of suffering. Maybe what I'm saying has more to do with semantics than anything, but such a difference exists between secular sati and samma sati, and some need for this distinction to be discussed.
tiltbillings wrote:" ...may do little to help eradicate the root causes of the greedy..." So, basically the purpose of meditation practice is to get a perception that you can then think about as a way of gaining insight into it.
Metta,AN 10.60: Girimananda Sutta wrote:"And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five clinging-aggregates. This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy.
"And what is the perception of not-self? There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'The eye is not-self, forms are not-self; the ear is not-self, sounds are not-self; the nose is not-self, aromas are not-self; the tongue is not-self, flavors are not-self; the body is not-self, tactile sensations are not-self; the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self.' Thus he remains focused on not-selfness with regard to the six inner & outer sense media. This is called the perception of not-self.
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: judgment-free awareness
Assuming that's the part which doesn't make sense, I meant the argument that's been going on in this thread about the place judgement-free awareness in Buddhist practice.tiltbillings wrote:I have no idea of what you mean here.fivebells wrote:I think this is the heart of the controversy.tiltbillings wrote:What the Ajahns are talking about is a mature practice.
Re: judgment-free awareness
That's fine...when the son began to wonder, asking why the laundry was no longer magically doing itself, or why the Internet was suddenly no longer working, I would have then replied "why get stressed about it? Just reside in judgement-free awareness..."David N. Snyder wrote:Good quote by Ajahn Chah. It needs to be understood in context because it can easily be misinterpreted. Ajahn Brahm gave a similar teaching one day at his center. A father and his son were attending the talk. The next day the father asked his son to take the garbage out or some other simple task. The son replied, "I am only in judgment-free awareness, in the present." When asked about his homework or any other task, the son replied the same.
_/I\_
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: judgment-free awareness
Context is everything.manas wrote:That's fine...when the son began to wonder, asking why the laundry was no longer magically doing itself, or why the Internet was suddenly no longer working, I would have then replied "why get stressed about it? Just reside in judgement-free awareness..."David N. Snyder wrote:Good quote by Ajahn Chah. It needs to be understood in context because it can easily be misinterpreted. Ajahn Brahm gave a similar teaching one day at his center. A father and his son were attending the talk. The next day the father asked his son to take the garbage out or some other simple task. The son replied, "I am only in judgment-free awareness, in the present." When asked about his homework or any other task, the son replied the same.
_/I\_
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: judgment-free awareness
I hasten to add that my jest was aimed at the idea of using a profound spiritual teaching to get out of doing one's duties, and was not aimed at the profound teaching itself.tiltbillings wrote:Context is everything.
That is quite beautifully put.But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.
kind regards,
manas.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: judgment-free awareness
And this is another important shortcoming of secular mindfulness practice. It is virtually divorced from the other important parts of Buddhism, that of virtue and wisdom. Sure, the teachers may give the Buddha's teachings some lip service but it is minimal at best and downright distorted at worst. NB that this is just my experience.tiltbillings wrote:Context is everything.
It's like removing the bran and germ from whole wheat berries when turning them into white flour.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: judgment-free awareness
From Analayo's Satipatthana Sutta Commentary:
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtr ... ?PID=17023CHARACTERISTICS AND FUNCTIONS OF SATI
A close examination of the instructions in the Satipatthäna Sutta reveals that the meditator is never instructed to interfere actively with what happens in the mind. If a mental hindrance arises, for example, the task of satipatthana contemplation is to know that the hindrance is present, to know what has led to its arising, and to know what will lead to its disappearance. A more active intervention is no longer the domain of satipatthana, but belongs rather to the province of right effort (samma vayama).
The need to distinguish clearly between a first stage of observation and a second stage of taking action is, according to the Buddha, an essential feature of his way of teaching. The simple reason for this approach is that only the preliminary step of calmly assessing a situation without immediately reacting enables one to undertake the appropriate action.
Thus, although sati furnishes the necessary information for a wise deployment of right effort, and will monitor the countermeasures by noting if these are excessive or deficient, sati nevertheless
Uninvolved and detached receptivity as one of the crucial characteristics of sati forms an important aspect in the teachings of several modern meditation teachers and scholars. They emphasize that the purpose of sati is solely to make things conscious, not to eliminate them. Sati silently observes, like a spectator at a play, without in any way interfering. Some refer to this non-reactive feature of sati as "choiceless" awareness.'" "Choiceless" in the sense that with such awareness one remains impartially aware, without reacting with likes or dislikes. Such silent and non-reactive observation can at times suffice to curb unwholesomeness, so that an application of sati can have quite active consequences. Yet sati's activity is confined to detached observation. That is, sati does not change experience, it deepens it.
This non-interfering quality of sati is required to enable one clearly to observe the building up of reactions and their underlying motives. As soon as one becomes in any way involved in a reaction, the detached observational vantage point is immediately lost. The detached receptivity of sati enables one to step back from the situation at hand and thereby to become an unbiased observer of one's subjective involvement and of the entire situation.' This detached distance allows for a more objective perspective, a characteristic illustrated in the above-mentioned simile of climbing a tower.
This detached but receptive stance of satipatthana constitutes a "middle path", since it avoids the two extremes of suppression and reaction. The receptivity of sati, in the absence of both suppression and reaction, allows personal shortcomings and unjustified reactions to unfold before the watchful stance of the meditator, without being suppressed by the affective investment inherent in one's self-image. Maintaining the presence of sati in this way is closely related to the ability to tolerate a high degree of "cognitive dissonance", since the witnessing of one's own shortcomings ordinarily leads to unconscious attempts at reducing the resulting feeling of discomfort by avoiding or even altering the perceived information.
This shift towards a more objective and uninvolved perspective introduces an important element of sobriety into self-observation. The element of "sobriety" inherent in the presence of sati comes up in an entertaining canonical description of a particular celestial realm, whose divine inhabitants get so "intoxicated" with sensual indulgence that they lose all sati. As a consequence of being without sati, they fall from their elevated celestial position and are reborn in a lower realm.6~ The reverse case is also documented in another discourse, in which negligent monks, reborn in an inferior celestial realm, on regaining their sati are at once able to ascend to a higher realm. Both these instances point to the edifying power of sati and its wholesome repercussions.
Sati as a mental quality is closely related to attention (manasikara), a basic function which, according to the Abhidhaminic analysis, is present in any kind of mental state. This basic faculty of ordinary attention characterizes the initial split seconds of bare cognizing of an object, before one begins to recognize, identify, and conceptualize. Sati can be understood as a further development and temporal extension of this type of attention, thereby adding clarity and depth to the usually much too short fraction of time occupied by bare attention in the perceptual process. The resemblance in function between sati and attention is also reflected in the fact that wise attention (yoniso manasikara) parallels several aspects of satipatthäna contemplation, such as directing attention to antidotes for the hindrances, becoming aware of the impermanent nature of the aggregates or of the sense-pleasures, establishing the awakening factors, and contemplating the four noble truths.
This "bare attention" aspect of sati has an intriguing potential, since it is capable of leading to a "de-automatization" of mental mechanisms. Through bare sati one is able to see things just as they are, unadulterated by habitual reactions and projections. By bringing the perceptual process into the full light of awareness, one becomes conscious of automatic and habitual responses to perceptual data. Full awareness of these automatic responses is the necessary preliminary step to changing detrimental mental habits.
Sati as bare attention is particularly relevant to restraint at the sense doors (indriya sarnvara). In this aspect of the gradual path, the practitioner is encouraged to retain bare sati in regard to all sense-input. Through the simple presence of undisrupted and bare mindfulness, the mind is "restrained" from amplifying and proliferating the received information in various ways. This guardianship role of sati in relation to sense-input is alluded to in those similes that declare satipatthana to be the proper "pasture" for a meditator and which compare sati to the gatekeeper of a town.
According to the discourses, the purpose of restraining the senses is to avoid the arising of desires (abhijjha) and discontent (domanassa). Such freedom from desires and discontent is also an aspect of satipatthana contemplation, mentioned in the "definition" part of the discourse. Thus the absence of reactions under the influence of desires and discontent is a common feature of both satipaffhana and sense-restraint. This goes to show that there is a considerable degree of overlap between these two activities.
To sum up, sati entails an alert but receptive equanimous observation. Viewed from the context of actual practice, a predominantly receptive sati is then enlivened by the quality of being diligent (ätapi), and supported by a foundation in concentration (samadhi).
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
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- BB
- tiltbillings
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Re: judgment-free awareness
We are not talking about 'secular mindfulness practice" here.Mkoll wrote:And this is another important shortcoming of secular mindfulness practice. It is virtually divorced from the other important parts of Buddhism, that of virtue and wisdom. Sure, the teachers may give the Buddha's teachings some lip service but it is minimal at best and downright distorted at worst. NB that this is just my experience.tiltbillings wrote:Context is everything.
It's like removing the bran and germ from whole wheat berries when turning them into white flour.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: judgment-free awareness
One can do that, and it has its place, but there is also simply directly seeing these things without the medium of conceptual thinking, and it is that which is the transformative, freeing insight.retrofuturist wrote:tiltbillings wrote:" ...may do little to help eradicate the root causes of the greedy..." So, basically the purpose of meditation practice is to get a perception that you can then think about as a way of gaining insight into it.AN 10.60: Girimananda Sutta wrote:"And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five clinging-aggregates. This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy.
"And what is the perception of not-self? There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'The eye is not-self, forms are not-self; the ear is not-self, sounds are not-self; the nose is not-self, aromas are not-self; the tongue is not-self, flavors are not-self; the body is not-self, tactile sensations are not-self; the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self.' Thus he remains focused on not-selfness with regard to the six inner & outer sense media. This is called the perception of not-self.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: judgment-free awareness
Mind the gap.Thus, although sati furnishes the necessary information for a wise deployment of right effort, and will monitor the countermeasures by noting if these are excessive or deficient, sati nevertheless remains an aloof quality of uninvolved, detached observation. Sati can interact with other, much more active factors of the mind, yet by itself it does not interfere.
Uninvolved and detached receptivity...
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]