judgment-free awareness

[tiltbillings]

Sati without sampajanna is only half the equation. . . .

Your point with these quotes is?

Judgement free awareness would be like blissing out under the Bodhi tree and sampajanna would be thinking, "Who can I benefit benefit from this discovery?"
Judgement free awareness would be like walking into the path of a raging cow and getting gored. With sampajanna one can avoid such problems.

It is not enough to just see, hear, smell etc. See David's comment.
Don't forget the active component.

So, Ajahns Chah and Munindo haven't a clue as to what they are talking about.

[Mr Man]

The "judgment-free awareness" still needs to be taken within a context and to practice it is not easy.

[Kenshou]

I think that this approach actually automatically satisfies right effort, because that kind of attitude is really just the sort of thing that feeds good qualities and starves bad ones, settles the mind, and allows clear comprehension, in an nearly (but not entirely) effortless way. It is a very refined practice that comes about from a lot of experience and a well developed mind.

[tiltbillings]

The "judgment-free awareness" still needs to be taken within a context and to practice it is not easy.

What the Ajahns are talking about is a mature practice.

[Samma]

Note that Still Forrest Pool was compiled by jack kornfield & paul breiter.
So not sure that is a quote maybe more paraphrase.

Whatever there is that arises in the mind, just watch it. Let go of it. Don't even wish to be rid of thoughts. Then the mind will reach its natural state. No discriminating between good and bad, hot and cold, fast and slow. No me and no you, no self at all. Just what there is. When you walk on alms-round, no need to do anything special. Simply walk and see what there is. No need to cling to isolation or seclusion. Wherever you are, know yourself by being natural and watching. If doubts arise, watch them come
and go. It' s very simple. Hold on to nothing. It is as though you are walking down a road. Periodically you will run into obstacles. When you meet defilements, just see them and just overcome them by letting
go of them. don't think about the obstacles you have passed already . Don't worry about those you have not yet seen. Stick to the present. Don't be concerned about the length of the road or about the destination. Everything is changing. Whatever you pass, do not cling to it. Eventually the mind will reach its natural balance where practice is automatic. All things will come and go of themselves. (Teachings of Ajahn Chah p. 76)

Some context for the Munindo quote:
[Munindo] characterised a practice centered on trust in a non-judgmental awareness of the present moment as ‘source-oriented’ practice, contrasting it to ‘goal-oriented’ striving. (p.7)


The satipatthana refrain is of interest, Analayo p. 111:

At this comparatively advanced stage satipatthana is practised for its own sake. With this shift in attitude, the goal and the act of meditation being to merge into one, since awareness and understanding are cultivated for the sake of developing ever more awareness and understanding. The practice of satipatthan becomes "effortless effort", so to speak, divested of goal-orientation and expectation. It is preciesly this way of contemplating tha tin turn enables one to proceed independently, "without clinging to anything in the world" of expiernece, as stipulated in the final part of the refrain"

[pegembara]

So, Ajahns Chah and Munindo haven't a clue as to what they are talking about.

Sure they do. They are wise people.

Q: Have you ever looked at the Altar Sutra of the 6th Patriarch, Hui Neng?

Answer: Hui Neng's wisdom is very keen. It is very profound teaching,not easy for beginners to understand. But if you practise with our discipline and with patience, if you practise not-clinging, you will eventually understand. Once I had a disciple who stayed in a grass-roofed hut. It rained often that rainy season and one day a strong wind blew off half the roof. He did not bother to fix it, just let it rain in. Several days passed and I asked him about his hut. He said he was practising not-clinging. This is not-clinging without wisdom. It is about the same as the equanimity of a water buffalo. If you live a good life and live simply, if you are patient and unselfish, you will understand the wisdom of Hui Neng.

http://www.buddhanet.net/bodhiny2.htm

[Spiny Norman]

With sampajanna one can avoid such problems.

But isn't sampajanna a type of judgement? Wise judgement, anyway. So perhaps the point is not rushing to judgement, not reacting to immediate experience?

[tiltbillings]

With sampajanna one can avoid such problems.

But isn't sampajanna a type of judgement? Wise judgement, anyway. So perhaps the point is not rushing to judgement, not reacting to immediate experience?

The primary context, it seems to me, of the two OP quotes is meditation practice.

[Spiny Norman]

With sampajanna one can avoid such problems.

But isn't sampajanna a type of judgement? Wise judgement, anyway. So perhaps the point is not rushing to judgement, not reacting to immediate experience?

The primary context, it seems to me, of the two OP quotes is meditation practice.

Certainly the first one, though I think the second has application both on and off the cushion.

[tiltbillings]

Certainly the first one, though I think the second has application both on and off the cushion.

I would have said it the other way round.

[sphairos]

perhaps it's worth mentioning in this context that judgment-free awareness is the very core of the modern MBSR-therapy (and the like, of course, which are many these days):

Mindfulness means paying attention in a particular way; On purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally (Jon Kabat-Zinn)
http://www.wildmind.org/applied/daily-l ... indfulness

It's also worth considering that absence of judgement lies at the very core of the humanistic psychology and therapy:

Rogers asserted that the most important factor in successful therapy is the relational climate created by the therapist's attitude to their client. He specified three interrelated core conditions:

Congruence - the willingness to transparently relate to clients without hiding behind a professional or personal facade.
Unconditional Positive Regard - the therapist offers an acceptance and prizing for their client for who he or she is without conveying disapproving feelings, actions or characteristics and demonstrating a willingness to attentively listen without interruption, judgement or giving advice.
Empathy - the therapist communicates their desire to understand and appreciate their clients perspective.

See also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person-cen ... Conditions

And I would also say that it - the very judgement-free awareness - is one of the main features of psychoanalytical treatment.

[Mr Man]

The context is practicing within the discipline and the tradition, this is a safe guard. No doubt Ajahn Chah had great faith/confidence in the way of practice through putting in the time and be committed to it and seeing the results.

I think it is really not that hard to get a feel for "rest with things as they are" and experience "where it is cool" but having the confidence and the vigilance to go with it is where we fall down.

[kirk5a]

The OP quotations could be seen as an "exhortation in brief" which have an "in detail" explication that helps more precisely draw out the meaning and resolve wrong ways of understanding what was said. The section below is how Ven. Mālunkyaputta described his understanding of instructions given to him by the Buddha, which are identical to those given to Bahiya. (Since the "Bahiya instructions" have been held out as what, in the suttas, would correspond to this practice of "judgment-free awareness")

Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,
Attending to the pleasing sign,
One experiences it with infatuated mind
And remains tightly holding to it.

Many feelings flourish within,
Originating from the visible form,
Covetousness and annoyance as well
By which one's mind becomes disturbed.
For one who accumulates suffering thus
Nibbāna is said to be far away.

... [the same for heard a sound, smelt an odour, enjoyed a taste, felt a contact, known an object] ...

When, firmly mindful, one sees a form,
One is not inflamed by lust for forms;
One experiences it with dispassionate mind
And does not remain holding it tightly.

One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering] is exhausted, not built up.
For one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbāna is said to be close by.

- SN 35.95 BB trans.

[sphairos]

Mr Man,
why should one practice "within the discipline and the tradition" and consider that - and no other thing - to be the context? Who says that?

[Sylvester]

The OP quotations could be seen as an "exhortation in brief" which have an "in detail" explication that helps more precisely draw out the meaning and resolve wrong ways of understanding what was said. The section below is how Ven. Mālunkyaputta described his understanding of instructions given to him by the Buddha, which are identical to those given to Bahiya. (Since the "Bahiya instructions" have been held out as what, in the suttas, would correspond to this practice of "judgment-free awareness")

Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,
Attending to the pleasing sign,
One experiences it with infatuated mind
And remains tightly holding to it.

Many feelings flourish within,
Originating from the visible form,
Covetousness and annoyance as well
By which one's mind becomes disturbed.
For one who accumulates suffering thus
Nibbāna is said to be far away.

... [the same for heard a sound, smelt an odour, enjoyed a taste, felt a contact, known an object] ...

When, firmly mindful, one sees a form,
One is not inflamed by lust for forms;
One experiences it with dispassionate mind
And does not remain holding it tightly.

One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering] is exhausted, not built up.
For one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbāna is said to be close by.

- SN 35.95 BB trans.

I think that while this is an important point, what is more important is to ask these 2 questions -

1. how does one not "grasp at the sign" (nimittaggāhī), the process that leads to the chanda, raga, pema (desire, passion, love) or I-making?
2. will judgment-free awareness be able to stop said "grasping"?

I suspect that part of the problem in understanding how "grasping at the sign" is to be negated falls much on how Right Effort is interpreted.