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How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:14 am
by Spiny Norman
I thought it might be useful to share experience.

My current approach is to simply observe continual change, using the 6 sense bases as a framework.

How about you?

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:28 am
by Ben
I contemplate the anicca characteristic of vedana (sensation) in vedananupassana (vipassana meditation as taught by Sayagi U Ba Khin and SN Goenka).
kind regards,

Ben

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:48 am
by Spiny Norman
Ben wrote:I contemplate the anicca characteristic of vedana (sensation) in vedananupassana (vipassana meditation as taught by Sayagi U Ba Khin and SN Goenka).
kind regards,

Ben
Just to check my understanding Ben, is this the method where one focuses primarily on the movement of the abdomen but shifts attention to other physical sensations as they arise?

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:54 am
by Ben
No, Spiny.
What we do during a retreat is spend the first 1/3 of the retreat time developing samadhi via anapana (observing the touch of the breath in the area under the nostrils), then we practice vipassana by moving our awareness throughout the body observing the anicca characteristic of sensations.
The observation of the breath by observing the movement of the abdomen is a vipassana technique that was taught by the Mahasi Sayadaw and his students.
kind regards,

Ben

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:58 pm
by Spiny Norman
Ben wrote:No, Spiny.
What we do during a retreat is spend the first 1/3 of the retreat time developing samadhi via anapana (observing the touch of the breath in the area under the nostrils), then we practice vipassana by moving our awareness throughout the body observing the anicca characteristic of sensations.
Yes, I see. Could you say how that translates to a daily meditation practice? Would you spend some time developing samadhi, then move to vipassana?

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:01 pm
by tiltbillings
Spiny Norman wrote:I thought it might be useful to share experience.

My current approach is to simply observe continual change, using the 6 sense bases as a framework.

How about you?
What do you mean by "contemplate?"

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:18 pm
by Spiny Norman
tiltbillings wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:I thought it might be useful to share experience.

My current approach is to simply observe continual change, using the 6 sense bases as a framework.

How about you?
What do you mean by "contemplate?"
Good question! I suppose I was thinking about direct observation, but "contemplate" could also include reflection.

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:14 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote:My current approach is to simply observe continual change, using the 6 sense bases as a framework.

How about you?
Likewise, but it's consciously the aniccata of sankharas - sabbe sankhara anicca.

Yes, it's also aniccata of dhammas (since all dhammas other than nibbana are sankhata-dhamma) but I have found sabbe sankhara anicca a more useful frame of reference for observation. The reason I have found it more useful is because the actual fabrication itself is a product of avijja (i.e. ignorance, i.e. you create it yourself), whereas if the focus is exclusively on the end-result dhammas (and their fabrication and cessation of that fabrication from the sphere of direct experience is excluded from perception) a vitally important aspect of the wilful ignorant generation of samsara will be missed. When it all comes down to it, that seems to be the purpose of insight meditation... to learn how to bring that process of ignorant fabrication to an end.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:52 pm
by Ben
Spiny Norman wrote:
Ben wrote:No, Spiny.
What we do during a retreat is spend the first 1/3 of the retreat time developing samadhi via anapana (observing the touch of the breath in the area under the nostrils), then we practice vipassana by moving our awareness throughout the body observing the anicca characteristic of sensations.
Yes, I see. Could you say how that translates to a daily meditation practice? Would you spend some time developing samadhi, then move to vipassana?
On a daily basis I don't practice anapana-sati. Only as and when I need it. ie: when my concentration is not strong or when my sensitivity to subtle vedanas is diminished and then I will practice for as long as needed. Otherwise, I devote two 1 hour sessions a day to observing vedana in sitting mediation. I also spend five minutes at the end of each session practicing metta bhavana and the sharing of merits. My meditative awarness continues throughout the day for differing lengths of time where I am aware of the anicca characteristic of vedana or one or more of the other foundations of mindfulness.
kind regards,

Ben

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:01 am
by fivebells
Burmese vipassana really has this down (at least the way Goenka and Mahasi talk about it.) They just try to note what's arising as fast as they can.

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:09 am
by Ben
fivebells wrote:...they just try to note what's arising

And passing away
fivebells wrote:as fast as they can.
kind regards,

Ben

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:12 am
by Spiny Norman
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote:My current approach is to simply observe continual change, using the 6 sense bases as a framework.

How about you?
Likewise, but it's consciously the aniccata of sankharas - sabbe sankhara anicca.
Yes, it's also aniccata of dhammas (since all dhammas other than nibbana are sankhata-dhamma) but I have found sabbe sankhara anicca a more useful frame of reference for observation.
Retro, I'm not clear on the distinction between sankhara and dhamma in the context of observing anicca. Could you elaborate?

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:31 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Spiny,

Not simple to explain, but here goes...

Dhamma can be roughly translated as thing or experience.
Sankhara can be roughly translated as formation or fabrication.
Sankhata-dhamma can therefore be roughly translated as fabricated experience.
Asankhata-dhamma is therefore unfabricated experience, and this term is analogous to nibbana.

The very act of consciousness (presence) at the sense door, involves converting so-called "raw stimuli" into an "experience" (dhamma) and is generally an act of formation for the non-arahant*.

In our life we have "experiences" (not "raw stimuli") and that "experience" is wilfully formed based upon the conjoinment of "raw stimuli" and various cognitive acts, classifyiable under the aggregates schema.

No formed consciousness is independent of that act of forming.

If we focus on "dhammas" rather than "sankharas", there is a greater propensity to mistake "experience" for "raw stimuli", and the distinction is crucial in terms of learning how not to fabricate, because the presence of "raw stimuli" itself is a fait accompli... and you can't really learn how not to do have "raw stimuli", whereas by removing avijja you can avoid giving rise to sankhata-dhammas.

* compare with the "seen in the seen" style instructions to Bahiya that Kirk showed you recently, and the difference between what a putthujana does, what a trainee should do, and what the arahant does in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:58 am
by mikenz66
retrofuturist wrote: If we focus on "dhammas" rather than "sankharas", there is a greater propensity to mistake "experience" for "raw stimuli", ...
Hmm, I'm confused. Sorry.

How do you tell the difference (if any) between dhammas and sahkhata-dhammas? All dhammas are fabricated (apart from nibbana), so all of our (unawakened) experience is fabricated isn't it?

Or are you talking about your "attitude" toward the phenomena, rather than some distinction between the phenomena themselves?

And what are these "raw stimuli" exactly? Surely whatever they are they are also fabricated:
"From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling." etc...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#phassa
:anjali:
Mike

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:17 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Or are you talking about your "attitude" toward the phenomena, rather than some distinction between the phenomena themselves?
"Lens of perception" or "frame of reference" moreso than "attitude".
mikenz66 wrote:And what are these "raw stimuli" exactly? Surely whatever they are they are also fabricated
No, there is just consciousness (presence) that corresponds to them.

Re: contact... see http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8033 - but especially this post - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... =0#p126522
MN 18 wrote:Now, when there is the eye, when there are forms, when there is eye-consciousness, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of contact.
Metta,
Retro. :)