The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Dinsdale
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:42 am

santa100 wrote: So basically my position is to "wait and see" instead of immediately conclude it as nonsense..
Me too. I think an overly dismissive attitude is counterproductive - the attitude of "It can't exist because I haven't seen it".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SarathW
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by SarathW » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:57 pm

Some info regarding op:

=================================
In discerning41 the formation is gross, and it is subtle in the
first jhána access; also it is gross in that (and) subtle in the first
jhána; in the first jhána and second jhána access it is gross, (and)
in the second jhána subtle; in the second jhána and third jhána
access it is gross, (and) in the third jhána subtle; in the third
jhána and fourth jhána access it is gross, and in the fourth jhána
it is exceedingly subtle and even reaches suspension. This is the
opinion of the Dìgha and Saíyutta reciters. But the Majjhima
reciters would have it that it is more subtle in the access than in
the jhána immediately below,
(saying) “in the first jhána it is
gross, in the second jhána access it is subtle” (and so on). It is
however, the opinion of all that the occurrence of the bodily
formation at the time of not discerning is tranquillized at the
time of discerning; the bodily formation that arose at the time of
discerning is tranquillized in the first jhána access … the bodily
formation that arose in the fourth jhána access is tranquillized in
the fourth jhána. This is the method in so far as concerns


Page 20

http://bps.lk/olib/bp/bp502s.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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seeker242
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by seeker242 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:57 am

"The fifth through the eighth jhanas are the “absorptions without form.” This is because they refer to states of consciousness where there is no perception of a form or body." http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... y_of_Space

"The immaterial jhanas are designated, not by numerical names like their predecessors, but by the names of their objective spheres: the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.[18] They receive the designation "immaterial" or " formless" (arupa) because they are achieved by surmounting all perceptions of material form," http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 1.html#ch4

Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, Ananda, he could..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Where does it say that the body actually stops breathing? Everything I have seen says that the perception of body breathing ceases, not the actual body breathing? AKA no longer "percipient of... wind with regard to ... wind"

percipient
adj.
Having the power of perceiving

If you no longer have any perception of body or breathing, you could rightly say "breathing has ceased" while the body is still breathing all by itself.

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Zom
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by Zom » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:08 pm

Sutta SN 36.11 says about "in-out breathing" and not about "perception of in-out breathing". So yes, breath completely stops in 4th jhana. As well as all mental formations completely stop in sannya-vedaita-nirodha. And as all defilements stop when reaching arahantship ,)

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications.
- When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased.
- When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased.
- When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased.
- When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased.
- When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased.
- When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased.

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seeker242
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by seeker242 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:14 pm

Zom wrote:Sutta SN 36.11 says about "in-out breathing" and not about "perception of in-out breathing". So yes, breath completely stops in 4th jhana. As well as all mental formations completely stop in sannya-vedaita-nirodha. And as all defilements stop when reaching arahantship ,)

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications.
- When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased.
- When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased.
- When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased.
- When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased.
- When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased.
- When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased.
Is there some other sutta to corroborate the idea that "in and out breathing" refers to the autonomic physical activity of the body and not the mental activity of the mind with regards to "in and out breathing"?

:namaste:

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Zom
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by Zom » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:23 am

There is.

"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


As you can see, these are separate fabrications from mental fabrications which are "feelings and perceptions".

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daverupa
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by daverupa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:31 am

This doesn't appear to make much epistemological sense; if the jhanas are without perception of the five physical senses, bodily breathing wouldn't be apparent to the individual in jhana, ever, to say nothing of it arising or ceasing. Therefore, this statement that the breath physically ceases would never be something that could be verified for oneself here and now.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Zom
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by Zom » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Well, in the 4th jhana you actually can see if there is a breathing or not since this is not arupa-loka, where you no longer perceive forms. So, as I see it, it can be verified here and now by oneself. The only problem is to reach 4th jhana.

Btw, all proficient meditatiors do know that breath becomes very refined long before even 1st jhana. What to say about 4th -)

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daverupa
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by daverupa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:50 pm

Zom wrote:Well, in the 4th jhana you actually can see if there is a breathing or not since this is not arupa-loka, where you no longer perceive forms.
So then, the breathing which can be detected in jhana is that breathing-dhamma which, with mano and vinnana, contacts? This dhamma, then, is what ceases in fourth jhana?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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beeblebrox
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by beeblebrox » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:39 pm

It might be interesting to analyze more closely the way that a body breathes.

The lungs actually don't do any work when it comes to breathing... it's all due to the diaphragm (contracting and doming) and the changes in the pressure from inside (the cavity around the lungs) in relative to the outside (atmospheric pressure).

So, when the diaphragm flattens, this causes the pressure to drop around the lungs. The air then enters due to its higher pressure... it also causes the lungs to stretch.

When the diaphragm domes back up, the inner pressure goes back to normal. The elasticity of the lungs pushes the air back out.

These are why it's more difficult to breathe when we go higher up in the altitude (because of lower air pressure on the outside), and when the lungs become less elastic (due to age, or smoking, for example).

When I meditate I actually sometimes focus on just allowing the air to enter, instead of "inhaling" it into the body, and then just allowing the body's natural pressure to push it back out, instead of "exhaling" (or "blowing" it out through the nose).

It's not something I do in a regular practice, but these kind of changes in the perspective are still interesting.

I also found these on Wikipedia about breathing, maybe they'll be helpful or not:
[ . . . ] while exercising, the level of carbon dioxide in the blood increases due to increased cellular respiration by the muscles, which activates carotid and aortic bodies and the respiration center, which ultimately cause a higher rate of respiration.

During rest, the level of carbon dioxide is lower, so breathing rate is lower. This ensures an appropriate amount of oxygen is delivered to the muscles and other organs. It is important to reiterate that it is the buildup of carbon dioxide making the blood acidic that elicits the desperation for a breath much more than lack of oxygen.
and:
[ . . . ] there have been instances where people have survived for as long as two hours without air; this is only possible when submerged in cold water, as this triggers the mammalian diving reflex[6] as well as putting the subject into a state of suspended animation.
and:
If a healthy person were to voluntarily stop breathing (i.e. hold his or her breath) for a long enough amount of time, he or she would lose consciousness, and the body would resume breathing on its own. Because of this one cannot commit suicide with this method, unless one's breathing was also restricted by something else (e.g. water, see drowning).
:anjali:

SarathW
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:47 am

subject, should consider thus: “Where are these in-and-out
breaths? Where are they not? Whose are they? Whose are they
not?” Then, considering thus (and) recognizing that they are not
in one within the mother’s womb, nor in those who are drowned
in water, nor similarly in unconscious beings, in the dead, in
those who have entered into the fourth jhána, in those endowed
with existence in the fine-material or immaterial states, nor in
those who have entered into the attainment of cessation—he
should apostrophize himself thus: “You, with all your wisdom,
are certainly (none of these).
Interestingly here ceasing in breath is equated to a dead person.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:38 pm

I didn't even know there was a fifth jhana. This whole time i thought there was only four.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:27 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:38 pm
I didn't even know there was a fifth jhana. This whole time i thought there was only four.
The 8 fold path only refers to 4 jhana because only 4 are necessary for arahantship. The 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and "9th" are optional.
daverupa wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:31 am
This doesn't appear to make much epistemological sense; if the jhanas are without perception of the five physical senses, bodily breathing wouldn't be apparent to the individual in jhana, ever, to say nothing of it arising or ceasing. Therefore, this statement that the breath physically ceases would never be something that could be verified for oneself here and now.
I think the 4th jhana must be reached to verify this topic. That the body sense base might possibly be discerned in the 4th jhana does not necessarily mean the body sense base is discerned in the 1st, 2nd & 3rd jhana because there is rapture & happiness in the 1st, 2nd & 3rd jhana prohibiting the mind from discerning the body sense base in those jhanas.

SarathW
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:56 pm

I didn't even know there was a fifth jhana. This whole time i thought there was only four.
In Sutta it says four Jhana.
In Abhidhamma and perhaps Visuddhimaga (I am not sure) refers to five Jhana.
That is the elimination of Vitakka and Vicara in second Jhane is treated in two steps (in sutta it is one step).
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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