vipassana craziness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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tiltbillings
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:29 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote: With respect Tilt I think you really need to go back and read over what I actually said. Have I said something that is not correct?
If you are saying that Goenka or Mahasi Sayadaw are out of line with the Theravada and the teachings of the Buddha, then yes, you have said something quite incorrect.
Well I never even mentioned Mahasi Sayadaw.
Fine, but you are still quite wrong about Goenka.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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marc108
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by marc108 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:44 pm

Mr Man wrote:The format and technique do not come from the suttas.

even hardline Sutta-based teachers like Taan Geoff say that Goenkas sweeping techniques are in line with the Buddhas approach to meditation... ardency, mindfulness and alertness. although i dont know much about the format and theories, or anything beyond the technique it self.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"In a "scanning" or "body sweep" practice, mindfulness means remembering to stick with the process of scanning the body, while alertness would mean seeing the subtle sensations of the body being scanned. Ardency would mean sticking with the scanning process and trying to be ever more sensitive to the subtlest sensations. As in the previous case, these activities are related to factors of jhāna, and the process, if conducted in line with the texts, should culminate in a state of full-bodied singleness, at which time the motion of the scanning can be brought to stillness, and the mind can enter deeper concentration."
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Mr Man
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:18 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Fine, but you are still quite wrong about Goenka.
Wrong about what?

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tiltbillings
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:20 pm

MM wrote:
tilt wrote:
Mr Man wrote: Well I never even mentioned Mahasi Sayadaw.
Fine, but you are still quite wrong about Goenka.
Wrong about what?
That Goenka is not in line with Theravada and not in line with the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:34 pm

tiltbillings wrote:That Goenka is not in line with Theravada and not in line with the Buddha's teachings.
Okay. I don't think that the Buddha taught the "technique" and format that is used by Goenka, which is not a problem in and of itself. I don't think Goenka's organization can be considered to be mainstream Theravada. It is it's own little subgroup to my mind. And more distinct than many of the other subgroups

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tiltbillings
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:36 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That Goenka is not in line with Theravada and not in line with the Buddha's teachings.
Okay. I don't think that the Buddha taught the "technique" and format that is used by Goenka, which is not a problem in and of itself. I don't think Goenka's organization can be considered to be mainstream Theravada. It is it's own little subgroup to my mind. And more distinct than many of the other subgroups
To your mind.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:51 am

Tilt, do you think the Buddha taught the "technique"?

To support my view that Goenka's organization is not mainstream Theravada have a look at their website:

http://www.dhamma.org/en/goenka.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.dhamma.org/en/vipassana.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you think Goenkaji perceives his organization to be part of the wider Theravada community?

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tiltbillings
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:29 am

Mr Man wrote:Tilt, do you think the Buddha taught the "technique"?
The Buddha taught no technique, which is why there are various differing techniques developed to put the Buddha's teachings into practice.
To support my view that Goenka's organization is not mainstream Theravada have a look at their website:

http://www.dhamma.org/en/goenka.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.dhamma.org/en/vipassana.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And who are you trying to convince here?
Do you think Goenkaji perceives his organization to be part of the wider Theravada community?
You will have to ask him, but I would say that he fits in.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:07 am

tiltbillings wrote:The Buddha taught no technique
Ahh so you agree with me?
And who are you trying to convince here?
I'm not trying to convince anyone.
You will have to ask him, but I would say that he fits in.
Well in my experience the organization does not embrace it. I've heard the students are not encouraged to sit with practioners from outside their tradition + or visit instutions from outside their tradition.

Tilt are you a student of Goenka?

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tiltbillings
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:22 am

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The Buddha taught no technique
Ahh so you agree with me?
It is an interesting question as to what the Buddha taught. Every teacher, or every "independent" practitioner, is going to develop their own, or adopt and adapt other peoples', techniques in response to what they understand the Buddha's teachings to be.

[
You will have to ask him, but I would say that he fits in.
Well in my experience the organization does not embrace it. I've heard the students are not encouraged to sit with practioners from outside their tradition + or visit instutions from outside their tradition.
Yes and no, but the Goenka and his organization has done a great promote Theravada. http://www.pariyatti.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tilt are you a student of Goenka?
Nope, but I know people who are.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:30 am

DAWN wrote:Actually, IMO , in long meditation sitting, it's not a mental activity, but a bodily pain what is realy difficult. :rolleye:
I use a comfy chair these days, it's much more practical. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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daverupa
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by daverupa » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:10 pm

tiltbillings wrote:It is an interesting question as to what the Buddha taught. Every teacher, or every "independent" practitioner, is going to develop their own, or adopt and adapt other peoples', techniques in response to what they understand the Buddha's teachings to be.
On that note:
MN 101 wrote:And how is striving fruitful, how is exertion fruitful? There is the case where a monk, when not loaded down, does not load himself down with pain, nor does he reject pleasure that accords with the Dhamma, although he is not fixated on that pleasure. He discerns that 'When I exert a [physical, verbal, or mental] fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of exertion there is dispassion. When I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity there is dispassion.' So he exerts a fabrication against the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the fabrication of exertion, and develops equanimity with regard to the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the development of equanimity. Thus the stress coming from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the fabrication of exertion is exhausted & the stress resulting from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the development of equanimity is exhausted.
MN 57 wrote:"What is neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening that leads to the exhaustion of kamma? As to these (three kinds of kamma), any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark with dark ripening, any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is bright with bright ripening, and any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark-and bright with dark-and-bright ripening: this is called neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:40 pm

So he exerts a fabrication against
It will be worth the effort to look at the Pali of this and other translations.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Goenka and his organization has done a great promote Theravada. http://www.pariyatti.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From you link I saw John Coleman has died, which is sad news.
http://www.imcitalia.it/

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tiltbillings
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Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:43 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Goenka and his organization has done a great promote Theravada. http://www.pariyatti.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From you link I saw John Coleman has died, which is sad news.
http://www.imcitalia.it/
It is sad. Also, I hoped that you saw something else from that link.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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