Satipatthana - non-appropriation, insight, or both?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

In the Satipatthana Sutta, I can't help noticing the repeated refrains about non-appropriation and the way in which non-appropriation is reflected in the concluding section.

Could it be, perhaps, that satipatthana is actually an experiential mode of non-appropriation (i.e. seeing the body just as body, without appropriating it as "mine") moreso than a technique by which to develop insight into the three characteristics? (i.e. I see lots of anatta, anicca and dukkha called out elsewhere in the suttas, but not in MN10)

What do you think?

Metta,
Retro.

[daverupa]

What technique isn't an experiential mode?

We might think of calming sankhara as enacting non-appropriation, which makes it an integral part of the practice. The first two tetrads, then releasing the citta in the third, and especially anicca et al in the fourth...

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

What technique isn't an experiential mode?

Good point. I lapsed back into conventional usage for a moment to the detriment of the question I was trying to ask.

To remain constant, I meant is satipatthana a mode of non-appropriation, or is it a mode of ti-lakkhana observation (or both?)

We might think of calming sankhara as enacting non-appropriation, which makes it an integral part of the practice. The first two tetrads, then releasing the citta in the third, and especially anicca et al in the fourth...

Just to clarify, when you're talking tetrads, are you still talking satipatthana, or now anapanasati?

Metta,
Retro.

[daverupa]

when you're talking tetrads, are you still talking satipatthana, or now anapanasati?

So, due to there being an answer to the question...

"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

...I don't distinguish them, but this is because I find that parsing satipatthana for a variety of practices is not helpful; the point is jhana, and anapanasati does that. Bells and whistles need not apply.

(Strictly in this context, an argument which takes the form of "different strokes for different folks" is one I will argue against, but that may be going too far afield at this point.)

As to these various observations, that happens from jhana - doing it as an aspect of satipatthana is hammering without having placed a nail. But, to attain jhana, one "lets go" - so, if non-appropriation means this, then that is indeed what anapanasati accomplishes.

[retrofuturist]

Thanks Dave.



Metta,
Retro.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Bumped because I was looking at this question I posed several years ago and was wondering if our current members had any thoughts on the subject they wanted to share...



Metta,
Paul.

[User1249x]

as i understood your question it looks like you are asking whether or not Kaya/Vedana/Cittanupassana are "hands-on" practices to condition non-appropriation. In that case i think they can be said to be such in the sense that these are wholesome themes being maintained and investigated which develops the enlightenment factor of "Investigation of Phenomena" which is connected with "wisdom", "insight" and "the path factor of right view" *.

Non-Appropriation is the natural outcome of this practice but one should also train Dhammanupassana and not be negligent of discernment by examination of elements for that is also a way to train this "investigation".

I don't know exactly how it works but that is more or less how i understand it.

*Wisdom before it becomes the Path factor is explained thus;

What on that occasion is the faculty of wisdom (pannindriyaṃ)?

The wisdom which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Truth, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, leading, insight, intelligence, incitement; wisdom as faculty, wisdom as power, wisdom as a sword, wisdom as a height, wisdom as light, wisdom as glory, wisdom as splendour, wisdom as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searching the Truth, right views—this is the wisdom that there then is.
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.1/en/caf_rhysdavids

When the Path is born that wisdom becomes a path component which accompanies Noble Right Concentration;

What on that occasion is the faculty of wisdom?

The wisdom which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Truth, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, leading, insight, intelligence, incitement, wisdom as faculty and as power, wisdom as a sword, as a height, as light, as glory, as splendour, as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searching the Truth, right views, that searching the Truth which is a factor in the Great Awakening, a Path-component, contained in the Path—this is the wisdom that there then is.https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.5/en/caf_rhysdavids

Therefore it can understood that discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, leading, insight, intelligence, incitement, are all qualities which develop the factor of Investigation of Phenomena which leads to Culmination of Discernment Faculty at the time of the Unification of Mind accompanied by the other 7 path factors.

[SarathW]

I can't separate Anapanasati from Satipathana or vice versa.
They both address the non-appropriation and contemplate on Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
In case of insight, I think it include insight as well.
Then the question come why Samma Sati is the seven factor and the eight factor is Samma Samadhi.
Then Noble Tenfold Path extending it to right knowledge (insight) and right release.
Ultimate sense every limb in Noble Eightfold Path it self contain the Noble Eightfold Path.
It is just like the (I just forgot the word)

[DooDoot]

as i understood your question it looks like you are asking whether or not Kaya/Vedana/Cittanupassana are "hands-on" practices to condition non-appropriation.

My impression is the practise itself is non-appropriation.

Non-Appropriation is the natural outcome of this practice but one should also train Dhammanupassana and not be negligent of discernment by examination of elements for that is also a way to train this "investigation".

For me, non-appropriation is the practise and discernment by examination is a natural outcome. While discernment by examination also naturally results in the outcome of non-appropriation, I think the practise starts with non-appropriation. For example, in MN 118, the mindfulness factor of enlightenment operates before the examination of dhammas factor of enlightenment; yet both factors are said to be mature when having the quality of non-appropriation. Or in SN 48.9 & 10, it is said jhana is reached by making non-appropriation the meditation object.

[Srilankaputra]

Both!

Try to be mindful, and let things take their natural course. Then your mind will become still in any surroundings, like a clear forest pool. All kinds of wonderful, rare animals will come to drink at the pool, and you will clearly see the nature of all things. You will see many strange and wonderful things come and go, but you will be still. This is the happiness of the Buddha. - Ajahn Chah

[retrofuturist]

Greetings DooDoot,

For me, non-appropriation is the practise and discernment by examination is a natural outcome. While discernment by examination also naturally results in the outcome of non-appropriation, I think the practise starts with non-appropriation. For example, in MN 118, the mindfulness factor of enlightenment operates before the examination of dhammas factor of enlightenment; yet both factors are said to be mature when having the quality of non-appropriation. Or in SN 48.9 & 10, it is said jhana is reached by making non-appropriation the meditation object.

I concur.

Metta,
Paul.

[User1249x]

if you think about it logically you can't even conceive of non-appropriation in regards to the Aggregates without Dhammanupassana...

1. One hears the Dhamma
2. One thinks about the Dhamma and this is Dhammanupassana already

Practicing non-appropriation what is that exactly? Appropriation is based on a factor of a wrong view, non appropriation is the absence of the view.

How do you practice not holding a view? You don't. If you could practice not holding a view, you would not hold the view. Before abandonment of the wrong view one can only practice for the abandoning of a view. Anything else is called pretending and imagination.

Do this experiment;

Pick up an object hold it in your hand and practice "not-holding", can you do it without letting go of the object?

You can practice not-holding without letting go of the object no more than you can practice non-appropriation without demolishing the view and satipatthana is the practice to demolish the view. Anything else is called imagination and pretending.

Imagine if a person was convinced that he should always get up on the right foot and that getting up on the wrong would ruin him, thus he dares not get up on the wrong foot in the morning. That is his view. Now he might pretend and act as if he does not hold the view, he can even "practice getting up on wrong foot" during the day but when the morning comes it is not possible that he would decide to get up on the wrong foot on account of that conditioning and factor of the view.

If he was to investigate the basis for his believes he might eventually convince himself that it is irrational and give up that view, that is possible, then it is possible that he would decide to get up on the wrong foot when morning comes.

Therefore he can not "practice getting up on the wrong foot" he can only smash, scatter, & demolish the basis for the view after an investigation of the basis for the view.

I don't see the appeal of the "Pretend-Practice", let's pretend to not hold the wrong view! That is like pretending to be a millionare on facebook, without doing anything to make the money and starving to death in reality as a result. In the same way the "pretend buddhist" who writes and recites many teachings is spiritually broke because he does not act accordingly.

[DooDoot]

if you think about it logically you can't even conceive of non-appropriation in regards to the Aggregates without Dhammanupassana...

1. One hears the Dhamma
2. One thinks about the Dhamma and this is Dhammanupassana already

Dhammanupassana appears to be the last Satipatthana thus it does not appear to come first in terms of satipatthana practise. Also, the place of satipatthana is shown in the following text:

Thus associating with good persons , becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention (yonisomanasikāro). Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/bodhi

Thus, when one thinks about the Dhamma, this appears to be called "careful" or "wise attention" ("yonisomanasikāro").

Again, let us quote the SN about the place of "wise attention" or "thinking about the dhamma" ("yonisomanasikāro"):

“Bhikkhus, this is the forerunner and precursor of the rising of the sun, that is, the dawn. So too, bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu this is the forerunner and precursor for the arising of the Noble Eightfold Path, that is, accomplishment in virtue … accomplishment in desire … accomplishment in self … accomplishment in view … accomplishment in diligence … … accomplishment in careful attention (yonisomanasikārasampadā). When a bhikkhu is accomplished in careful attention, it is to be expected that he will develop and cultivate this Noble Eightfold Path.

“And how does a bhikkhu who is accomplished in careful attention develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops right view, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release…. He develops right concentration, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. It is in this way, bhikkhus, that a bhikkhu who is accomplished in careful attention develops and cultivates the Noble Eightfold Path.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.50-54/en/bodhi
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.55/en/sujato

It appears to believe: "one thinks about the Dhamma and this is Dhammanupassana already" is a case of overestimation. Again, if we quote MN 118, it shows Dhammanupassana is not performed with "thinking" but, instead, with thoughtless observation of in & out breathing:

They practice breathing in observing impermanence. They practice breathing out observing impermanence.
‘Aniccānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘aniccānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

They practice breathing in observing fading away. They practice breathing out observing fading away.
‘virāgānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘virāgānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

They practice breathing in observing cessation. They practice breathing out observing cessation.
‘nirodhānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘nirodhānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

They practice breathing in observing letting go. They practice breathing out observing letting go.
‘paṭinissaggānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘paṭinissaggānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato

Again, it appears to believe: "one thinks about the Dhamma and this is Dhammanupassana already" is a case of overestimation.

Instead of thinking about the Dhamma, MN 118 appears to say dhammanupassana is practised with equanimity:

at that time they meditate observing an aspect of principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
dhammesu dhammānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.

Having seen with wisdom the giving up of desire and aversion, they watch over closely with equanimity.
So yaṃ taṃ abhijjhādomanassānaṃ pahānaṃ taṃ paññāya disvā sādhukaṃ ajjhupekkhitā hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato

[User1249x]

I think you missed the point where I in several ways identified a possible outcome of an experiment and observation that conflicts with predictions deduced from your hypothesis. In doing that i successfully falsified your hypothesis.

[DooDoot]

if you think about it logically you can't even conceive of non-appropriation in regards to the Aggregates without Dhammanupassana...

1. One hears the Dhamma
2. One thinks about the Dhamma and this is Dhammanupassana already

Practicing non-appropriation what is that exactly? Appropriation is based on a factor of a wrong view, non appropriation is the absence of the view.

How do you practice not holding a view? You don't. If you could practice not holding a view, you would not hold the view. Before abandonment of the wrong view one can only practice for the abandoning of a view. Anything else is called pretending and imagination.

as i understood your question it looks like you are asking whether or not Kaya/Vedana/Cittanupassana are "hands-on" practices to condition non-appropriation. In that case i think they can be said to be such in the sense that these are wholesome themes being maintained and investigated which develops the enlightenment factor of "Investigation of Phenomena" which is connected with "wisdom", "insight" and "the path factor of right view" *.

The terminology above appears all out of place.

1. Right View is not Dhammanupassana

2. Right View is not Investigation of Phenomena (Dhammavicaya) or "Enlightenment Factor" (Sambojjhaṅgo).

3. Right View does not practise.

4. What practises is mindfulness.

Thus, while it is correct "a view is held when practising non-appropriation", this view is nothing of the things you posted.

The suttas explain as follows:

Of those, right view is the forerunner.

One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong view & for entering into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html