did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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robertk
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by robertk »

Ben wrote:Hi Robert
I disagree with your assessment of the technique that Goenkaji has propagated. I disagree with your statement that vipassana meditators either here or on e-sangha have claimed high attainments and I disagree with you with your statement
I believe little can be done to help anyone who thinks they are 'doing' vipassana, the attachment runs too deep usually.
.

IBen
Where did I ever say that people on esngha or here have ever claimed high attainments? What I am saying is that anyone who claims to have attained even nama-rupa parichedda nana, the first stage of insight, is claiming a high achievement. I have met and read of many (but not on esangha or dhamawheeel) who claim even more. Now as this is my last post on dhammwheel I apologize for not adding in 'most 'to my statments about the people who think they are having/doing/practicing vipassan becuase they can concentrate on a part of the body. Obviousdly some people are able to change. But I work out of an internte cafe most of teh time on a very tight schedule and sometimes write in a hurry.
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robertk
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by robertk »

Ben wrote:Hi Robert
Also, I agree with Jechbi with regards to your comparison of Goenka / Goenka's students with the Moonies. Such comparisons and other provocative statments do little for your argument.
Metta

Ben
Final post . I did not compare goneka with teh moonies. I was told by an esangha member that i should not speak anything about Goenka unless i was a past student. I used the example of moonies and my daughter to show that I could still have opinions even if I was not an ex moonie etc etc etc .
I don't have to study with Buddhadasa eitehr to write my post crtciining his beliefs. Or if I do please tell me why.
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Ben
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by Ben »

Hi Robert

You're always welcome here. Even though I may disagree with your point of view regarding vipassana meditation and SN Goenka, I respect and welcome your opinion. You never fail to give me a great deal to think about whether it is in regard to the Abhidhamma, the Dhamma generally or whether it is related to the technique propagated by my teacher. Your presence here is an asset to Dhamma Wheel - not just to those new to the path but to those who are more experienced and those, like me, who may even disagree with you!

I also want to make it clear that the discussion of my teacher and Vipassana Meditation as taught by him is not a prohibited subject here at Dhamma Wheel. Criticism of the technique that my teacher has propagated is not breaking some unspoken rule. I just ask that criticism of a teacher's method is done with respect.

What I want to point out that is that for many of us who have practiced under SN Goenka, that our understanding which has been developed through the experience of meditation courses and/or sustained daily practice is as valid, even if different, from your point of view.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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tiltbillings
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Robert: Without right view at the level of pariyatti - correct theroretical understanding- there can be no direct experience.
That does not say much about the efficacy of the practice.

?
Is this meant to disagree with what I said? In that case you disagree with the Theravada position .
Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti.

Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher’s Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared.
(Manorathapūraṇī i. 92-3, Translted by Dhammanando
I would be the last one to disparage study and learning the texts, but there is enough evidence of people, not followers of the Buddha, attaining a degree of awakening, such as Sariputta, based upon hearing a brief line of Dhamma, not even necessarily directly from the Buddha. So, careful study has not been an absolute necessity for initial insights. I suspect a person could come to some degree of insight by doing present-awareness practice - sati.

On the other hand the vipassana teachers with whom I have studied and practiced teach very carefully traditional Buddha-Dhamma. If a non-Buddhist, knowing nothing about the Dhamma, were to do a three month retreat at IMS, in addition to the practice experience, that individual would come away knowing a great deal in terms of practice, not just meditation, but sila, dana, and the Four Noble Truths.

I cannot speak for all vipassana teachers, but the ones I know teach Dhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
MMK23
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by MMK23 »

I think some of the participation in this thread has been dangerously close to sectarianism/intellectual mob mentality. Before Ba Khin, Mahasi Sayadaw, SN Goenka, etc, a conversation about "doing vipassana" would have presented extraordinarily different view points to the ones clearly popular amongst some practitioners here. Robertk's views are neither exegetically or traditionally marginal, and the views he has expressed here may well be more representative of "lay buddhism" for a good part of the time since the Buddha's death. Yet here, his view is clearly radical, which to my mind implies that clearly Theravadin orthodoxy for most people participating in this thread has been shaped by a modernist discourse of meditation, which is remarkably for being reframed here as an appeal to the authority of the suttas. I think this is a very strange case of intellectual imperialism and if nothing else, I would urge participants to have a slice of humble pie before weighing in with the burdens of revisionist certainty and sectarian audacity. I say this with kindness as an appeal to a functioning way of having discussions about things. I would be most disappointed if more people other than Robertk feel marginalised in this forum simply for being Theravadin a way that the majority is clearly not.
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Ben
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by Ben »

Thank you MMK for your post.
Firstly, there is no sectarianism going on. And if anyone feels marginalised here at Dhamma Wheel, all they need to do is raise their concerns with me or one of my colleagues or the administrators. The only people who may have anything to worry about are those that behave in ways that are at odds with the terms of service. While I thought I made it very clear in my response to Robertk above, no one here is punished or singled out for his or her view.
Secondly, the thread had been moved from the Classical Theravada to the more appropriate Theravada Meditation forum.
Thirdly, there is no intellectual imperialism going on. We are merely having a discussion regarding Vipassana Meditation.
If you have any further concerns regarding this thread, please raise it with a moderator or an administrator.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Jechbi
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by Jechbi »

Hi MMK23,

I'm really glad to see your post, because I don't like it either if it looks like someone is being marginalized or treated unfairly. Please let me accept a piece of that humble pie, and to the extent that I have been a pariticipant in anything that even has the appearance of "revisionist certainty" and "sectarian audacity," I am troubled. This is unsatisfactory.

From my perspective, I welcome informed criticism of the Goenka-taught approach. I don't want to engage in a straw-man practice. I feel practice always can benefit from a more realistic, more thorough understanding of all of its components, including its potential and real weaknesses. So I take Robert's criticism very seriously.

But my impression is that Robert's criticism became not rational. This is not a personal attack on Robert. I also do things that are not rational, often without realizing it. Hey, we're all human. On a certain level, Robert probably thought he was really supporting Buddhadhamma by doing his best to discredit the Goenka-taught approach and other Vipassana Meditation techniques. But the way he did it was, in my opinion, troll-like, as if he was trying to provoke personal reactions. For example, in this thread, which is mostly unrelated to Vipassana Meditation, Robert offered this comment (emphasis mine):
robertk wrote:... I guess most of my asian friends know more about Dhamma than me. However, these people mentioned above don't go on 10 day meditation retreats etc. so I guess that makes them sub-par in many western Buddhist eyes. They do make lots of donations to various Dhamma activities too.
What's up with that? This is clearly a reference to a Goenka-style retreat (because anyone who has read Robert's posts knows that's what he's talking about when he discusses 10-day meditation retreats), and he's clearly implying that the individuals who go on such retreats regard others as sub-par. In other words, Vipassana meditators think they're better, according to Robert. At least that's how I think a reasonable person would interpret what he wrote.

This type of comment is sprinkled throughout the posts that Robert makes, as if he is obsessed. He seeks out opportunities to take potshots at what he views as the personality faults of Vipassana meditators.

Now I'm just an ordinary meditator, nothing special, and I'm not even a very good meditator. So I have to admit, I'm still ignorantly susceptible to this type of provocation. I do my best to work with that, because it's nobody's problem but my own. But in a forum like this, I think it's perfectly legitimate to point it out when a poster begins offering irrational criticism such as bringing Moonies into the discussion in a way that appears to compare Vipassana meditators with cultists, and like insisting on a narrow definition of the term "vipassana" while willfully ignoring that it has broader usages.

Please, MM23, feel empowered to criticize the Goenka-taught approach. Nobody here should feel marginalized or discouraged from participating. Personally, I view this as a safe place to say things sometimes that might be uninformed. Most of the folks here are relatively gentle in trying to clarify.

Metta
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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cooran
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by cooran »

MMK23 said: I think some of the participation in this thread has been dangerously close to sectarianism/intellectual mob mentality. Before Ba Khin, Mahasi Sayadaw, SN Goenka, etc, a conversation about "doing vipassana" would have presented extraordinarily different view points to the ones clearly popular amongst some practitioners here. Robertk's views are neither exegetically or traditionally marginal, and the views he has expressed here may well be more representative of "lay buddhism" for a good part of the time since the Buddha's death. Yet here, his view is clearly radical, which to my mind implies that clearly Theravadin orthodoxy for most people participating in this thread has been shaped by a modernist discourse of meditation, which is remarkably for being reframed here as an appeal to the authority of the suttas. I think this is a very strange case of intellectual imperialism and if nothing else, I would urge participants to have a slice of humble pie before weighing in with the burdens of revisionist certainty and sectarian audacity. I say this with kindness as an appeal to a functioning way of having discussions about things. I would be most disappointed if more people other than Robertk feel marginalised in this forum simply for being Theravadin a way that the majority is clearly not.
Thanks MMK.23
Jechbi said:
But my impression is that Robert's criticism became not rational. This is not a personal attack on Robert
yeah, right. :o
I also do things that are not rational, often without realizing it. Hey, we're all human. On a certain level, Robert probably thought he was really supporting Buddhadhamma by doing his best to discredit the Goenka-taught approach and other Vipassana Meditation techniques. But the way he did it was, in my opinion, troll-like, as if he was trying to provoke personal reactions.
Personal attack, false attribution of motives.

Jechbi - in my opinion, you turned the thread, which could have been an interesting discussion, into a personal disparagement of RobertK. Your original post was allowed to stand for hours until protest was made and it was removed from view - and then the thread was moved from the Classical Forum to suit the views and intentions of others.
Once again, in this post, you are playing the man, not the ball.

Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Ben
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by Ben »

Hi all

I think its time we got back on topic.
Thanks for your cooperation.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Jechbi
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by Jechbi »

Yes, Ben, you're right. I wish to say, thank you Chris for the honest assessment. I can understand how it looks to you and others, and I take your words to heart.

Since my original post is no longer visible, people may have an incorrect understanding of what it said. In my opinion, it was respectful. I can understand why others might not have viewed it that way, however. I did not object when it was taken down. I also wish to note that I invited Robert on several occasions to PM me.

I fully accept this criticism, and I hope to be called out like this if I engage members in a way that seems inappropriate. We all come to this board with different expectations. I'm doing my best, and I'll try to do better.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by kc2dpt »

Someone asked if the Buddha taught vipasanna.
Someone (inevitably) answered 'no'.
Someone (inevitably) got upset at that answer.
Did anyone really expect something other than this to happen?
:coffee:
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by mikenz66 »

The sort of pointless "yes it is", "no it isn't" gainsaying that Peter refers to is, of course, the basis of the famous (to some people...) Monty Python Argument Sketch.

The Buddhist equivalent appears, for example, in DN 11:
"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these — 'You understand this doctrine and discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly. I'm being consistent. You're not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!' — he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
However, I think that it's useful to feel challenged about whether one's practise is going in a sensible direction... Or not...

Metta
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Jechbi
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by Jechbi »

Hello Peter and Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:The sort of pointless "yes it is", "no it isn't" gainsaying that Peter refers to is, of course, the basis of the famous (to some people...) Monty Python Argument Sketch.
You mean like this?
appicchato wrote:FWIW...Buddhadasa Bhikkhu states in his book 'Handbook For Mankind' that the Buddha did not teach Vipasanna meditation, and that there is no mention of it in the Tipitaka...
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:This is a matter of terminology only. Without any doubt, the Buddha taught meditation for the purpose of gaining insight and liberation, not for the purpose of gaining tranquillity or psychic powers. The progress of insight is referred to in the Rathavinīta Sutta.

The Satipatthāna Sutta teaches mindfulness meditation, and mindfulness together with concentration leads to insight (vipassanā), so we call it vipassanā meditation.

The Buddha never taught Buddhism either — he taught the Dhamma, but today we call it “Buddhism.”
I see nothing wrong with that type of back-and-forth.

I do not find it upsetting if somebody answers "no" when the question is posed, "Did the Buddha teach vipassana meditation?" I have no interest in trying to persuade people that I'm right and everybody else is wrong. I value a plurality of approaches in the Buddhadhamma, because I believe the Buddha taught to each disciple according to his or her leanings and capabilities. I regret that Robert has chosen to leave. I respect and value Robert's insights with regard to the Abhidhamma. I wish that we had all been in a room together in person during this discussion so that we could speak face-to-face, because I don't think this outcome was necessary. I accept responsibility for my role in this fiasco. I do not believe I was the only person objecting to Robert's conduct, however.
mikenz66 wrote:However, I think that it's useful to feel challenged about whether one's practise is going in a sensible direction... Or not...
Yes, I absolutely agree with this.

I invite anyone to PM me if there are concerns about me.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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tiltbillings
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Peter wrote:Someone asked if the Buddha taught vipasanna.
Someone (inevitably) answered 'no'.
Someone (inevitably) got upset at that answer.
Did anyone really expect something other than this to happen?
:coffee:
I can't get too excited about the question: "did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?" I get less excited by cranky dismissive responses, without back up, that really adds little to the conversation.

The "Vipassana" movement is fairly new, 1940’s to the 1950’s. This is nothing that is hidden or not talked about, but its founders’ Ledi Sayadaw and Mahasi Sayadaw were classically trained and I am sure they saw themselves functioning within what easily would be called “Classical Theravada” on this forum. I do not think that Mahasi Sayadaw saw that he was doing anything out of the mainstream of classical Theravada, even with his adaptations of meditation practice. And certainly his emphasis on laity doing serious meditative practice finds support in the commentaries.

I certainly cannot speak for all vipassana teachers, but the likes of Joseph Goldstein show a strong commitment to presenting the practice within the full contexts of the Buddha’s teachings.

Nothing is above criticism, but if there is to be criticism, let be carefully done without personal attacks; rather, let it be done with example and textual support. Also, the fact that a teacher might not cleave to every little bit of the tradition is not in and off itself a basis for dismissing what he or she has to say.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
MMK23
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by MMK23 »

The only point I want to make now is this: prior to the modernist vipassana revolution, much of what we take to be orthodox now would have been anything but. I don't think there is any evil in folks choosing what paths they want to take, and I for one am not going to try a propose a homogeneous Theravada magga. There is no shame in the fact that these movements are modern and recent and at their most legendary a "rediscovery" of a special technique passed through the Burmese masters originally from the Buddha. But if we imbue the orthodox with a particular value and then project that orthodoxy back through time, then we devalue 2 millenia of a diversity of magga and praxis philosophy.

Having experience with Mahasi style meditations, I don't find them to be evil or necessarily destructive. And at their best I found them revealing and beneficial. I moved away from them because I believed that for me they only reified my own sense of egoism and amounted to a sort of self-hypnosis. However, I believe these outcomes were relevant to my background, psychological, and mental effluent, and I certainly do not project that view with certainity on to any other practitioners of modern vipassana practices, many of whom have found the practices to be profoundly illuminating. I say this as a disclaimer, because I don't have an antagonistic view to these practices and I'm wary that some folks feel like they're under attack. You're not.

But to the simple question: did the buddha teach vipassana meditation? The short answer is no, as far as vipassana meditation refers to the modernist vipassana practices. But this leads to other questions,

Does vipassana meditation cultivate the Buddha's teaching?

Clearly the answer to this question is yes as far as the practitioners are concerned. And clearly this is not just an optimistic answer, but is an answer that pays serious attention to the Pali Canon and varieties of Pali exegesis.

Is vipassana meditation a serious and committed application of the noble eightfold path?

Clearly the answer to this questions is yes as far as the practitioners are concerned. And here's the rub: there's no shame in fresh interpretations of Buddhist praxis. The Buddha did not teach Buddhism, or probably a lot of what for 2 millenia has passed as Buddhism. "Buddhism" is the living tradition of trying to heed the dhamma of the Buddha. As Theravada Buddhists, we are committed to realising the lessons of the Buddhadhamma in the Pali Canon, those scriptures we hold to be the closest to the words from the Noble One's mouth. All Buddhisms, ever, are a serious and committed attempt to understand and realise the Buddhadhamma. This is why there is no shame in the reality that modernist meditative movements have no analogues for probably the best part of 2 millenia. What these practices are, are serious, committed, faithful, loving attempts to understand and realise the Buddhadhamma. And so in that sense they are exactly what the Buddha taught.
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