did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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reflection
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by reflection »

tiltbillings wrote:
Skeptic wrote:Is it possible not to attain jhana when seriously practising vipassana?
It is always the question: What is meant by jhana?
and by vipassana ;)
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mikenz66
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by mikenz66 »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:I have heard some say that the Satipatthana sutta's common refrain of "having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief" refers to dispelling the hindrances by entering jhana. Is there any substance to this claim that one cannot reach "Nibbana-level" mindfulness of the four foundations without first obtaining jhana?
This is discussed in the Commetary:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya].
So, it seems to be saying that jhana (absorption) would be useful, but not essential.

:anjali:
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pegembara
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by pegembara »

There are many places in the sutta where he taught "vipasanna", only he didn't call it vipasanna.


“The monk who has retired to a solitary abode and calmed his mind, who comprehends the Dhamma with insight, in him there arise a delight that transcends all human delights.

“Whenever he sees with insight the rise and fall of the aggregates, he is full of joy and happiness. To the discerning one this reflects the Deathless.”

~ Dhammapada 373-374


“Bhikkhus, visible-forms are impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“Sounds are impermanent… Smells are impermanent… Tastes are impermanent… Tactile-objects are impermanent… Mind-objects are impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple has revulsion towards visible-forms, has revulsion towards sounds, has revulsion towards smells, has revulsion towards tastes, has revulsion towards tactile-objects, has revulsion towards mind-objects. Having revulsion, he becomes dispassionate; Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there is the knowledge ‘It is liberated.’ He knows ‘Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived, what is to be done has been done, there is nothing more beyond this.”

~ Saṃyutta-Nikāya, Saḷāyatanavagga, Saḷāyatanasaṃyutta, Sutta 4


“In what respect, bhante, is a lay-follower accomplished in wisdom?”

“Here, Mahānāma, a lay-follower is wise; he possesses the wisdom that is directed towards rise and passing-away, which is noble and penetrative, which leads to the utter destruction of suffering. In this respect, Mahānāma, a lay-follower is accomplished in wisdom.”

~ Saṃyutta-Nikāya, Sotāpattisaṃyutta, Sutta 37

“And what, bhikkhus, is the development of concentration which when developed and cultivated leads to the destruction of the taints? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating rise and fall in the five-aggregates subject to clinging: 'Such is materiality, such is the arising of materiality, such is the passing-away of materiality; such is feeling, such is the arising of feeling, such is the passing-away of feeling; such is perception, such is the arising of perception, such is the passing-away of perception; such are mental-formations, such is the arising of mental-formations, such is the passing-away of mental-formations; such is consciousness, such is the arising of consciousness, such is the passing-away of consciousness.' This, bhikkhus, is the development of concentration which when developed and cultivated leads to the destruction of the taints.”

~ Aṅguttara-Nikāya, Book of the Fours, Sutta 41
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by Spiny Norman »

reflection wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Skeptic wrote:Is it possible not to attain jhana when seriously practising vipassana?
It is always the question: What is meant by jhana?
and by vipassana ;)
:clap:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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one_awakening
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by one_awakening »

One of Goenka's websites says "Since the time of Buddha, Vipassana has been handed down, to the present day, by an unbroken chain of teachers"

If find it hard to believe Goenka's method of scanning the body for sensations was passed down from the time of the Buddha.
“You only lose what you cling to”
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Thang Mlod
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by Thang Mlod »

My opinion: First, through the practice of Samatha, one has achieved samadhi. Realization of egolessness. The highest state of meditation is Samadhi, where there is no ego anymore. And then there is the practice we now call "Vipassana". Hence the sentence:
pegembara wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:35 pm
“The monk who has retired to a solitary abode and calmed his mind, who comprehends the Dhamma with insight, in him there arise a delight that transcends all human delights.

“Whenever he sees with insight the rise and fall of the aggregates, he is full of joy and happiness. To the discerning one this reflects the Deathless.”

~ Dhammapada 373-374


“Bhikkhus, visible-forms are impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“Sounds are impermanent… Smells are impermanent… Tastes are impermanent… Tactile-objects are impermanent… Mind-objects are impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

....".
pegembara
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by pegembara »

Thang Mlod wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:34 pm My opinion: First, through the practice of Samatha, one has achieved samadhi. Realization of egolessness. The highest state of meditation is Samadhi, where there is no ego anymore. And then there is the practice we now call "Vipassana". Hence the sentence:
pegembara wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:35 pm
“The monk who has retired to a solitary abode and calmed his mind, who comprehends the Dhamma with insight, in him there arise a delight that transcends all human delights.

“Whenever he sees with insight the rise and fall of the aggregates, he is full of joy and happiness. To the discerning one this reflects the Deathless.”

~ Dhammapada 373-374


“Bhikkhus, visible-forms are impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“Sounds are impermanent… Smells are impermanent… Tastes are impermanent… Tactile-objects are impermanent… Mind-objects are impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

....".
Pretty much. The right samadhi is a state of egolessness at least temporarily and the insight into the rise and fall of aggregates allows this state of egolessness to persist in the presence of the experience of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch, thoughts.
1) “There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

2) Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility of awareness.

3) Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquility of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

4) And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/an ... trans/9054
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
colagen
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by colagen »

I understood it as a matter of terminology :smile:
Pulsar
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by Pulsar »

Colagen wrote
I understood it as a matter of terminology?
can you elaborate please, what about terminology?
But I sure am glad you reintroduced this thread by your comment. I had never read it before. The following comment on page one, caught my attention
Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another. ......
I would not disagree with this, since insight is gained via mental qualities, Nama-Rupa giving rise to consciousness, Basically what Buddha woke up to, Dependent origination.
It is followed by
1. "Clearly saw insight": In Pali, this is vipassanam vipassi, which could be translated literally as "clearly saw clear seeing" or "insighted insight."
Insight into what? can someone explain what "insighted insight" means here. To me who is not an expert at Pali, but who can see clearly see, how Buddha explained Dependent Origination, would not that insight be insight into Dependent Origination where Nama, rupa combines to generate a new consciousness? Earlier the comment says
Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another

This further confirms my understanding that To Sariputta Rupa was a mental factor, not a physical factor. i.e. mental rupas generated by a mind engaged in papanca.
The comment is followed by
The Commentary states that the half month mentioned here refers to the half month between Ven. Sariputta's ordination and his attainment of arahantship, described in MN 74. These two suttas treat Sariputta's attainment from two different perspectives. This sutta shows it from the standpoint of his mastery of the four jhanas and the formless attainments based on the fourth jhana. That sutta shows it as occurring when he starts reflecting on a point while listening to a discourse that the Buddha is giving to his nephew. To put the two suttas together, we can infer that prior to the discourse given in MN 74, Sariputta had mastered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. While listening to the discourse, he reflected on the point that the Buddha recommended abandoning all mental qualities through direct knowledge. This would have led him to the cessation of perception and feeling (during which he would not be listening to the discourse) and so to Awakening
The commentary here clearly contradicts Mahavagga of Vinaya pitaka, which refers to Sriputta's encounter with Assaji.
With love :candle:
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:25 pm This further confirms my understanding that To Sariputta Rupa was a mental factor, not a physical factor. i.e. mental rupas generated by a mind engaged in papanca.
The comment is followed by
Rūpa is not on the list of jhāna factors.
https://suttacentral.net/mn111/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=none&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:And he distinguished the phenomena in the first absorption one by one: placing and keeping and rapture and bliss and unification of mind; contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and application of mind.
Ye ca paṭhame jhāne dhammā vitakko ca vicāro ca pīti ca sukhañca cittekaggatā ca, phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṁ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṁ sati upekkhā manasikāro—tyāssa dhammā anupadavavatthitā honti.
Tho, jhana citta produces rupa. Cittaja rupas
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/cittaj ... -arise/520

Dr Mehm Tin Mon wrote:Material Phenomena arising from Citta
The cittas that produce råpa number 75, excluding the
10 dvi-pa¤ca-vi¤¤àõa cittas and 4 aråpàvacara-vipàka cittas.
All pañisandhi-cittas and the death-consciousness of
arahats also do not produce råpa.
..
wrote:2 Sadda is the only dvija-råpa produced by citta and utu.
Vocal sounds such as speech, laughter, moaning, crying,
singing, and whistling are produced by citta.
Non-vocal
sounds such as thunder, musical notes from instruments,
speeches from the radio, songs from cassettes, noises
made by cars and trains, etc., are produced by utu.
rupas for bodily and verbal actions are produced by citta,
wrote:Two vi¤¤atti-råpas are produced by citta alone.
...
The 32 cittas comprising mano-dvàràvajjana, 29
kàmàvacara javanas and 2 abhi¤¤às (supernormal
knowledge) produce cittaja-råpa, support the bodily
postures and also produce two vi¤¤atti-råpas for bodily
actions and vocal actions.
Pulsar
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by Pulsar »

I was merely asking how people understood the statement
Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another. ......
It requires only a brief answer. It does not require sutta quotations, neither a knowledge of Pali.
Thank you :candle:
auto
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:48 pm I was merely asking how people understood the statement
Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another. ......
It requires only a brief answer. It does not require sutta quotations, neither a knowledge of Pali.
Thank you :candle:
You said that the sutta confirms your understanding about rupa being a mental factor. But if you look at the sutta, it doesn't have rupa listed amongst the factors there.
Do you have any comments about how does it confirm your understanding of rupa being the mental factor?
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