Awareness of awareness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Crazy cloud » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:54 pm

Well, of course, is "I am" a self-thought, but to make oneself understood here one has to use some kind of language that is commonly understood. But back to an empty mind that formulates "I am". Think "I", and let it be a pause before next thought "am", and continue doing "I am" a couple of more times with increased space between "I" and "am", and you will know with awareness that "I" disappears before "am", and so on. And one is left with anatta/deathless/emptiness.
Last edited by Crazy cloud on Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

auto
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:14 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:23 am
Let's say that I try to stick to the meanings kṛ takes in the literature of the time of Buddha, and apply that to the possibilities the suttas/sutras can provide.
Why not go with: kṛ - "to praise". kāra - "song of praise" ?
--
Manasi, si - whose, what, which. Mana itself isn't present.
---
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:12 am
If manasikāra can be somewhat translated as "attention", it's original and underlying meaning is "to turn the mano (towards)" (manasi-kṛ).
Difference is that it is mind making, where mind isn't present. In your case you are already using mano, to turn.
I suppose you don't pay attention to these little differences.
ToVincent wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:23 am
I have seen no reference in the suttas/sutras that explicitly state that the mano is exclusively human.
I meant it as being capable of understanding dhamma.
If there won't be kamma what result is to be experienced intellectually then dhamma can't arise.

ToVincent
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by ToVincent » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:33 pm

auto wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:14 pm
...
Why not kāra as "tax", while we are at it. ?!?!

-------

Not mana-si, but manasi, the loc. of manas (Skt. for mano).

-------

Sould I continue ?!?
Let's get serious; will you?
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

auto
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:40 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:33 pm
Sould I continue ?!?
Let's get serious; will you?
do you mean nitpicking, it doesn't make you better.
ToVincent wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:33 pm
Not mana-si, but manasi, the loc. of manas (Skt. for mano).
then just use - i -
or asi. Doesn't matter. You can go with your understanding what you typed in your posts.

and I don't know nothing about English words for "cases". I have common sense.

I can fairly well get by with just using "humming"/stuttering in my real life, you can't do lexico analyses to it. What is with these descriptions you make, I can't understand what you talk as what "hum" it presents you lexico about.
*
PS congratz after two posts of salt you got me upset. I wonder if it is the purpose.

Calmoid
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Calmoid » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:32 am

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:23 am
...
Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain more and answer some my questions! Unfortunately I still have a hard time following your writings, but nevermind, I think I lack too much knowledge and skills of the sort you have to be able to follow you even if you would try it again.

auto wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:40 pm
PS congratz after two posts of salt you got me upset. I wonder if it is the purpose.
:) What do you think, if someone offers you salt and you yourself voluntarily pick it up and eat it WHO would be then to "blame" for the salty taste in your mouth?

:heart:

ToVincent
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by ToVincent » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:00 am

Calmoid wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:32 am
ToVincent wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:23 am
...
Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain more and answer some my questions! Unfortunately I still have a hard time following your writings, but nevermind, I think I lack too much knowledge and skills of the sort you have to be able to follow you even if you would try it again.

auto wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:40 pm
PS congratz after two posts of salt you got me upset. I wonder if it is the purpose.
:) What do you think, if someone offers you salt and you yourself voluntarily pick it up and eat it WHO would be then to "blame" for the salty taste in your mouth?

:heart:
Indeed, when I read your remark to auto, I understand that there is quite a gap between our savvinesses - a primeval difference, that might be difficult to overcome.
Some kind of basic construal that would be quite impossible to get over with; even as you say it, if "I would try it again" (and again, and again...).
Sorry about that.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Calmoid
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:49 am

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Calmoid » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:48 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:00 am
Calmoid wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:32 am
ToVincent wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:23 am
...
Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain more and answer some my questions! Unfortunately I still have a hard time following your writings, but nevermind, I think I lack too much knowledge and skills of the sort you have to be able to follow you even if you would try it again.

auto wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:40 pm
PS congratz after two posts of salt you got me upset. I wonder if it is the purpose.
:) What do you think, if someone offers you salt and you yourself voluntarily pick it up and eat it WHO would be then to "blame" for the salty taste in your mouth?

:heart:
Indeed, when I read your remark to auto, I understand that there is quite a gap between our savvinesses - a primeval difference, that might be difficult to overcome.
Some kind of basic construal that would be quite impossible to get over with; even as you say it, if "I would try it again" (and again, and again...).
Sorry about that.
.
.


Yes fitting word, our construals are too far apart and I figured it would require unreasonable labour to get into your construal. Nothing to be sorry about, that is a normal part of life.

My comment to auto was meant to make him realise that If someone writes something to him which he takes as provocative or for "salt", he should better leave it (not pick it up/ use sati sampajanna) otherwise he gets upset (burns himself). A reminder that suffering is home made. Tanha - > dukkha.

auto
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:09 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:23 am
So when for instance, I hear yoniso manasikāra, being translated as "wise attention" - it might sound very profound and high-flown - but it is missing the more appropriate meaning of "turning the mano towards the origin".
the thing you talk about and the terms yoniso manasikara, mano are put there, you can as well use other terms. It is about 'awareness of awareness'.. also same or similar as of turning the light 'around' upon itself.
What makes it .. is the words like 'around' or 'towards' , 'turning' as they are just words to express how the gap closes between 'a' and 'a'.

There is theory but no words yet to convey the theory with precision. Is it same thing but in different places making its name different, so it is easy to think mano as something else as it is if think in different place.
As you said(as i understand from what you have written),
Awareness of awareness could be mano aware of ceto and once the ceto is removed it means cittavimutti, as a result mano is turned towards citta.
---
turning the light around, is regards to the eyes, as the forehead area where imagination happen when the light is turned around what happen is the light will descend to the spatial sphere of seeing consequently lighting up objects and the arhaic stream of consciousness(light) what comes from the center of the brain is removed.
It is forehead area because the light what descends descend from the above and right side. Whereas the former or arhaic stream is down and left side.
It happen when to with acknowledgement focus on the right side so that the energy will move from left to right and dissipate.(happens in a split second when done first time or times)
Second thing what happen is the focus point or focal point will descend to the body/torso, drops. This is for a reason, it will allows you to notice and stop urges, desires, perhaps it is the desiderative kṛ with the mano you talked about. Stopping urge is only needed one time while it can be multiple times till you gt it with the intelligence or acknowledge it enough to make it knowledge it will get you to next step.

Same process some can understand it just by hearing about, joining or taking both brain sides at the same time or making them active so making the inactive brain side into active, and by description tries to make it happen and succeeds, mind blown, perceptual transformation. As for the second thing you don't hear much about it since the first thing already is quite rare and the second thing has long gestation period to even start with.

pegembara
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by pegembara » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:37 am

There no subject without an object. For there to be one who sees, hears, thinks, feels there needs to be the corresponding seen, heard, thought or felt. One falsely assumes that there is a subject(self) that does(the doer) or experiences(the knower) those things.

The training is to not make that false assumption and let the subject fall away.
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
Awareness being aware of itself is merely objectifying the subject ("You will not be 'with that' or 'in that'. You are nowhere to be found)
‘Just like the question “Can you see your own eyes?”
Nobody can see their own eyes. I can see your eyes but I can’t see my eyes. I’m sitting right here, I’ve got two eyes and I can’t see them. But you can see my eyes. But there’s no need for me to see my eyes because I can see! It’s ridiculous, isn’t it? If I started saying “Why can’t I see my own eyes?” you’d think “Ajahn Sumedho’s really weird, isn’t he!”
Looking in a mirror you can see a reflection, but that’s not your eyes, it’s a reflection of your eyes. There’s no way that I’ve been able to look and see my own eyes. But then it’s not necessary to see your own eyes. It’s not necessary to know who it is that knows – because there’s knowing.’
~ Ajahn Sumedho, What is the Citta?, Forest Sangha Newsletter, Oct. ’88
This is an analogy for trying to look for your own mind in the outside world. Whatever you find will be an “object” of perception, not the perceiver – the One Who Knows. This is the fundamental problem of trying to find the “subject” in the objective world.
YOU ARE NOT THAT!

https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com ... n-my-eyes/

One grows disenchanted with the five aggregates and is freed.
"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:00 pm

pegembara wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:37 am
There no subject without an object. For there to be one who sees, hears, thinks, feels there needs to be the corresponding seen, heard, thought or felt. One falsely assumes that there is a subject(self) that does(the doer) or experiences(the knower) those things.

The training is to not make that false assumption and let the subject fall away.
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
Awareness being aware of itself is merely objectifying the subject ("You will not be 'with that' or 'in that'. You are nowhere to be found)
.
https://suttacentral.net/mn143/en/sujato wrote:I’m not keeping well, Master Sāriputta, I’m not alright. The pain is terrible and growing, not fading, its growing, not its fading, is evident.”
Na me, bhante sāriputta, khamanīyaṃ na yāpanīyaṃ. Bāḷhā me dukkhā vedanā abhikkamanti, no paṭikkamanti; abhikkamosānaṃ paññāyati, no paṭikkamo”ti.
“That’s why, householder, you should train like this: “Tasmātiha te, gahapati, evaṃ sikkhitabbaṃ:

‘I shall not grasp the eye, and there shall be no consciousness of mine dependent on the eye.’ ‘na cakkhuṃ upādiyissāmi, na ca me cakkhunissitaṃ viññāṇaṃ bhavissatī’ti.
The idea is to not allow your consciousness bhavissati(arise, come into existence) dependent on the eye.

likewise with the mana, don't grasp mana so that your consciousness won't bhavissati(depending on the mana whereas the no self vinnana will arise as it should.
https://suttacentral.net/mn143/en/sujato wrote: ‘I shall not grasp the mind, and there shall be no consciousness of mine dependent on the mind.’ ‘na manaṃ upādiyissāmi, na ca me manonissitaṃ viññāṇaṃ bhavissatī’ti.
That’s how you should train. Evañhi te, gahapati, sikkhitabbaṃ. (1)
the "you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen;" is for not cause your consciousness to arise(descend actually?. "you will not be 'with that.'"
-----
So this could refer to the post birth consciousness what is past the clinging link whereas the consciousness what supposed to arise dependent on the eye is the consciousness link.
To keep in mind the complicated graphs.

pegembara
Posts: 1639
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by pegembara » Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:42 pm

auto wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:00 pm
https://suttacentral.net/mn143/en/sujato wrote:I’m not keeping well, Master Sāriputta, I’m not alright. The pain is terrible and growing, not fading, its growing, not its fading, is evident.”
Na me, bhante sāriputta, khamanīyaṃ na yāpanīyaṃ. Bāḷhā me dukkhā vedanā abhikkamanti, no paṭikkamanti; abhikkamosānaṃ paññāyati, no paṭikkamo”ti.
“That’s why, householder, you should train like this: “Tasmātiha te, gahapati, evaṃ sikkhitabbaṃ:

‘I shall not grasp the eye, and there shall be no consciousness of mine dependent on the eye.’ ‘na cakkhuṃ upādiyissāmi, na ca me cakkhunissitaṃ viññāṇaṃ bhavissatī’ti.
The idea is to not allow your consciousness bhavissati(arise, come into existence) dependent on the eye.

likewise with the mana, don't grasp mana so that your consciousness won't bhavissati(depending on the mana whereas the no self vinnana will arise as it should.
https://suttacentral.net/mn143/en/sujato wrote: ‘I shall not grasp the mind, and there shall be no consciousness of mine dependent on the mind.’ ‘na manaṃ upādiyissāmi, na ca me manonissitaṃ viññāṇaṃ bhavissatī’ti.
That’s how you should train. Evañhi te, gahapati, sikkhitabbaṃ. (1)
You should train like this: ‘I shall not grasp whatever is seen, heard, thought, known, sought, and explored by my mind, and there shall be no consciousness of mine dependent on that.’ That’s how you should train.”
By not grasping at the signs and features of objects ie. not asking what, why or how?

This is basically not being entangled by and caught up in the properties of objects as they appear and thereby form basis for ideation and conceptual proliferation, attraction and aversion

And what, venerable sir, is the signless liberation of mind? Here, with nonattention to all signs, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the signless concentration of mind. This is called the signless liberation of mind.
SN 41.7

Note: As one of the path to nibbana:
“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned?
Signless concentration….
SN 43.12

The one whose defilements are dried up,
Who’s not attached to food,
Whose resort is the liberation
That is signless and empty:
Their track is hard to trace,
Like that of birds in the sky.
Thag 1.92

Meditate on the signless,
Throw out the underlying tendency to conceit,
And when you have a breakthrough in understanding conceit,
You will live at peace.”
Thag 21.1

Once awareness or consciousness is freed, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Don't question the value of a gift.
"What lies on the other side of release?"

"Unbinding lies on the other side of release."

"What lies on the other side of Unbinding?"

"You've gone too far, friend Visakha. You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

auto
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:10 pm

pegembara wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:42 pm
By not grasping at the signs and features of objects ie. not asking what, why or how?

This is basically not being entangled by and caught up in the properties of objects as they appear and thereby form basis for ideation and conceptual proliferation, attraction and aversion
Grasping is strain, stress, being cramped etc. After seeing something there can arise grasping. Even simple fever is grasping, where self view arises, if can stop the self view you would come healthy on spot.
Dukkha can be pretty strong at times, at that point is the need to stop the arising of self-vinnana and maintain sila/your character.
In short, a condition where actually there is desire, the self is visible as of dhamma ditthi "I am" arises, it tries to break your character and force you to do something what you would not do otherwise.
If you can maintain sila then it is requirement fulfilled for to attain samadhi. Just overcome the urge and then can get to samadhi.

Without self view there won't be spiritual path possible, no reach for 3rd jhana. If self won't come visible then find conditions where it comes.
--
ability to 'sense the self' or focus on self directly without the asmimana(maybe actually avittakaavicara) comes with the samadhi. There is special concentration you can do then, which is awareness of awareness, being focused upon oneself.

pegembara
Posts: 1639
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by pegembara » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:37 am

auto wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:10 pm
pegembara wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:42 pm
By not grasping at the signs and features of objects ie. not asking what, why or how?

This is basically not being entangled by and caught up in the properties of objects as they appear and thereby form basis for ideation and conceptual proliferation, attraction and aversion
Grasping is strain, stress, being cramped etc. After seeing something there can arise grasping. Even simple fever is grasping, where self view arises, if can stop the self view you would come healthy on spot.
Dukkha can be pretty strong at times, at that point is the need to stop the arising of self-vinnana and maintain sila/your character.
In short, a condition where actually there is desire, the self is visible as of dhamma ditthi "I am" arises, it tries to break your character and force you to do something what you would not do otherwise.
If you can maintain sila then it is requirement fulfilled for to attain samadhi. Just overcome the urge and then can get to samadhi.

Without self view there won't be spiritual path possible, no reach for 3rd jhana. If self won't come visible then find conditions where it comes.
--
ability to 'sense the self' or focus on self directly without the asmimana(maybe actually avittakaavicara) comes with the samadhi. There is special concentration you can do then, which is awareness of awareness, being focused upon oneself.
The builder of self is craving(pushing away or pull towards) which begins with grasping at objects. Even young children have such a desire. When they are able to express becomes "I want/don't want ..."
O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.
"And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

auto
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:55 pm

pegembara wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:37 am
The builder of self is craving(pushing away or pull towards) which begins with grasping at objects. Even young children have such a desire. When they are able to express becomes "I want/don't want ..."
O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.
"And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming."
Sensations in heart, the self is not visible, these are feelings. When the craving arises, self becomes visible. Then can get to the head, thinking. How to use fire and cook food is to have more convenient living are imagined out.
Whereas,
when craving ceases, then some processes in body won't work, and consequently suffering arises, that suffering is for to induce will under the heart, not the throat(speech), without vitakkavicara. That will get access to the head, through dark space to connect with the dream or imagination(what induces dream). Then can attain to the realm(3rd jhana realms) what is accessed by having joined or understood dream/imagination and material elements.
Samadhi of a 3rd jhana is where the craving for existence or non-existence ceases. The 3rd jhana is different than the previous two.

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