Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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thang
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Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by thang » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:02 pm

MN 64: Mahā-Māluŋkya Suttaɱ [Of Bursting Bonds Asunder]

so that he develops and dwells in the First Ecstasy ..
Whatsoever occurs as a visible shape, or feeling, or perception, or factors of being, - all such mental phenomena he regards as transitory,
as Ill, as disease, as pustulences, as pangs, as anguish, as maladies, as extraneous, as fleeting, as hollow, as non-self. ..
Rising above observation and reflection, the Almsman enters on, and abides in, the Second Ecstasy ...
Whatsoever occurs as a visible shape, or feeling, or perception, or factors of being, - all such mental phenomena he regards as transitory, as Ill, as disease, as pustulences, as pangs, as anguish, as maladies, as extraneous, as fleeting, as hollow, as non-self. ..
And then follow the Third and Fourth Ecstasies. ..
Whatsoever occurs as a visible shape, or feeling, or perception, or factors of being, - all such mental phenomena he regards as transitory, as Ill, as disease, as pustulences, as pangs, as anguish, as maladies, as extraneous, as fleeting, as hollow, as non-self. ..
Rising next altogether beyond perception of the visible, .. develops, and abides in, the plane of infinite space,
Whatsoever occurs as a visible shape, or feeling, or perception, or factors of being, - all such mental phenomena he regards as transitory, as Ill, as disease, as pustulences, as pangs, as anguish, as maladies, as extraneous, as fleeting, as hollow, as non-self. ..
and, in succession, the plane of infinite mind.
Whatsoever occurs as a visible shape, or feeling, or perception, or factors of being, - all such mental phenomena he regards as transitory, as Ill, as disease, as pustulences, as pangs, as anguish, as maladies, as extraneous, as fleeting, as hollow, as non-self. ..

Is there such a practice among modern masters?

What about Ajahn Dtun, Liem, Ganha, Piak, Brahm, Thanissaro ?
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."

SarathW
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Re: Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:23 am

The best online Satipathana teaching I came across was by Joseph Goldstein .
However I am not aware of his attainments.

https://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/6162/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by Pseudobabble » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:56 am

thang wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:02 pm
...

What about Ajahn Dtun, Liem, Ganha, Piak, Brahm, Thanissaro ?
Don't know about the others, but Brahm(ali) and Thanissaro seem to practice that way.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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DooDoot
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Re: Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:20 am

thang wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:02 pm
Is there such a practice among modern masters?
Vipassana is not really a "practise". Vipassana is something that naturally occurs when the mind is clear.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

thang
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Re: Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by thang » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:56 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:20 am
Vipassana is not really a "practise". Vipassana is something that naturally occurs when the mind is clear.
If so, then, what is the meaning of the following quotes from the suttas?
  • Sile patitthaya naro sapanno cittam pannan ca bhavayam [SN 1.7.1-22, SN 1.1.21-30]
  • Sannavedayitanirodhasamapattiya kho gahapati dve dhamma bahupakara samatho ca vipassana ca ti. [SN.4. Salayatana-Vagga]
  • Katamo ca bhikkhave asankhatagami maggo, Samatho vipassana ca. ayam vuccati bhikkhave asankhatagami maggo. [SN.4. Salayatana-Vagga]
  • Katamo ca bhikkhave asankhatagami maggo, Vipassana. ayam vuccati bhikkhave asankhatagami maggo. [SN.4. Salayatana-Vagga]
  • samudayavayadhammanupassiva kayasmim viharati. [DN.22. Mahasatipattana Sutta]
And in op:
  • so that he develops and dwells in the First Ecstasy .. Whatsoever occurs .. - all such mental phenomena he regards as transitory,
    as Ill, as disease, as pustulences, as pangs, as anguish, as maladies, as extraneous, as fleeting, as hollow, as non-self.
    [MN 64: Mahā-Māluŋkya Sutta]
So, can it be a natural thing happened while in samadhi?
How can something naturally occured be a path ('magga') as in 'asankhatagami maggo' ?
How can someone develop panna as in 'cittam pannan ca bhavayam' ?
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."

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DooDoot
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Re: Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:09 am

thang wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:56 pm
If so, then, what is the meaning of the following quotes from the suttas?
If you wish to have an orderly discussion, please kindly provide links to English translations. Thank you. As for support for my post, I offer the following:
When the noble eightfold path is developed, the following are fully developed: the four kinds of mindfulness meditation, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, and the seven awakening factors.

Tassa evaṃ imaṃ ariyaṃ aṭṭhaṅgikaṃ maggaṃ bhāvayato cattāropi satipaṭṭhānā bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, cattāropi sammappadhānā bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, cattāropi iddhipādā bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, pañcapi indriyāni bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, pañcapi balāni bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, sattapi bojjhaṅgā bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti.

And these two qualities proceed in conjunction:

Tassime dve dhammā yuganandhā vattanti—

serenity and discernment.

samatho ca vipassanā ca.

https://suttacentral.net/mn149/en/sujato
When your mind is immersed in samādhi you need not make a wish:

Samāhitassa, bhikkhave, na cetanāya karaṇīyaṃ:

‘May I truly know and see!’

‘yathābhūtaṃ jānāmi passāmī’ti.

It’s only natural to truly know and see when your mind is immersed in samādhi.

Dhammatā esā, bhikkhave, yaṃ samāhito yathābhūtaṃ jānāti passati.

https://suttacentral.net/an11.2/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

thang
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Re: Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by thang » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:54 am

“For a person engaged in moral conduct (sila), and is thus moral and virtuous, there is no need to wish (cetanā): “May I be able to act with a calm mind (avippatisara)”. It is in the nature of things that agitation of the mind does not arise in a person engaged in sila, and is virtuous.
Na cetanakaraniya sutta
Likewise sila->avippatisara->pamojja->piti->passaddhi->sukha->samadhi->yathabhuta dassana->nibbida->virati->vimutti nanadassana.
Is it correct if we understand the meaning like below?:
"If someone have sila all the path components will be automatically completed without a practice." ?
Then there is not even a samadhi practice except keeping sila.
What is the correct explanation which is comply with all the sutta passages mentioned in above posts?
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."

constellation
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Re: Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by constellation » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:25 pm

"If someone have sila all the path components will be automatically completed without a practice." ?

As said by Sāriputta, “Friend, the purification of virtue is for the sake of reaching purification of mind; the purification of mind is for the sake of reaching purification of view; the purification of view is for the sake of reaching purification by overcoming doubt; the purification by overcoming doubt is for the sake of reaching purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path; the purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path is for the sake of reaching purification by knowledge and vision of the way; the purification by knowledge and vision of the way is for the sake of reaching purification by knowledge and vision; the purification by knowledge and vision is for the sake of reaching final Nibbāna without clinging. It is for the sake of final liberation without clinging that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One”. But what does it mean to live under the Blessed One?

Meditation does not mean only to sit with legs crossed and eyes closed but one has to understand that in every moment one can practice what is known as awareness, heedful from moment to moment with bodily, verbally and mental actions. The mindfulness method of meditation is designed to actualize the truths through daily activities of life.

Satipaṭṭhāna meditation is basically a holistic approach. It treats life as a whole and employs a variety of alternatives to face and cultivate the mental power and perfect spiritual faculties and to overcome all problems.

The core teaching of the Buddha is called “Noble Eightfold Path” (āriya atthāṅgika magga) which represents the three trainings (sikkhā) of Sīla (morality), Samādhi (meditative concentration) and Paññā (wisdom). This is the only way to practice contemplation, securely supported by virtue and that wisdom can arise dispelling the darkness of ignorance. Having exhausted all defilements, one can realize the highest blissful state of Nibbāna which is the final liberation for all beings. Sīla (morality), e.g. (courtesy) Access to the Breath (courtesy — nattiness), etc. Courtesy — nattiness? Paññāloko (the light of wisdom).

In S.V.II.iii.10 'Udāyi·Suttaṃ' ('The Udāyi Sutta'), Ven. Udāyi describes his practice to The Buddha: 'The Bhagavā taught me this Dhamma: "Such is materiality, such materiality's origination, such materiality's extinction. Such is feeling, [etc.]." Then I, Venerable Sir, gone to an empty place, going over the rise&fall (ukkujj·āvakujjaṃ samparivattento) of these five clinging-aggregates [as rise&perish (udaya·bbaya·vasena)], directly knew according to reality (yathā·bhūtaṃ abbh·aññāsiṃ): "This is suffering....suffering's origin....suffering's cessation....the practice leading to suffering's cessation." The Dhamma by me, Venerable Sir, has been recognized (abhisamito), and the Path by me has been obtained (paṭiladdho).' He then explains that if he develops that path, he will attain Arahantship. [The Dhamma he recognized was insight Dhamma (vipassanā·Dhamma), and the path the insight path (vipassanā·magga).]

Then in D.II.1 'Mahā·Padāna·Suttaṃ' ('The Great Lineage Sutta'), The Buddha gives an account of the previous six Buddhas, explaining in some detail Buddha Vipassī's life, ninety-one aeons ago. And He includes an explanation of how The Buddha Vipassī discovered dependent origination in regular/negative order, and His thinking: 'Indeed, I have reached the path to enlightenment (adhigato kho myāyaṃ maggo sambodhāya yad·idaṃ) [the insight path (vipassanā·maggo)(as in the 'Udāyi' sutta just mentioned)].' And then The Buddha Vipassī abode contemplating the rise&perish of the five aggregates (pañcasu upādāna·kkhandhesu udaya·bbay·ānupassī): 'Such is materiality, [etc.]', and not long after attained Arahantship and Buddhahood.

The seven stages of purification (satta-visuddhi) are as follows:

1. The Purification of Morality (sīla-visuddhi): The first two stages (sīla and citta visuddhi) are likened to the roots of a great tree. The purification of virtue consists of ever- deepening stages of moral excellence. Beginning with the five basic moral precepts. One who gives up these five harmful acts and does not engage in them is truly called a virtuous man. Through their expansion into the eight and then ten precepts, they reach their refinement in the Monastic Code (Paṭimokkha). In this way the necessary moral foundation is laid for the development of the five spiritual faculties (indriyā) of faith (saddhā), energy (vīriya), mindfulness (sati), concentration (samādhi) and understanding (paññā).

2. The Purification of Mind (citta-visiddhi): This purification comes through concentration (samādhi), which can be reached by two approaches, the vehicle of serenity (samathayāna) or the vehicle of insight (vipassanāyāna).

3. The Purification of View (diṭṭhi-visuddhi).

4. The Purification of Overcoming Doubt (kankhāvitarana-visuddhi).

5. The Purification of Vision in discerning the Path and Non-path (maggāmaggañāṇadassana-visuddhi).

6. The Purification of Vision in discerning the method of the path (paṭipadāñāṇadassana-visuddhi).

7. The purification of vision regarding intuitive wisdom (ñāṇadassana-visuddhi).

Example of the modus vivendi (compromise): ān·āpāna·suñño·sati paññ·āloko. The Greatest Friendship.

LeighKramer
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Re: Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by LeighKramer » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:04 pm

Ven. Yattadhammo Bhikku has a strong study of suttas and teaches vipassana. Has anyone participated in his meditation “classes” in Canada or online?

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budo
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Re: Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by budo » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:26 pm

LeighKramer wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:04 pm
Ven. Yattadhammo Bhikku has a strong study of suttas and teaches vipassana. Has anyone participated in his meditation “classes” in Canada or online?
As far as I know, one cannot claim to be aligned with the suttas and being a proponent of dry insight (to Arahantship, or even passed stream entry fruit) at the same time. I'd like to be proven wrong though.

LeighKramer
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Re: Is there Sutta-compliant Vipassana Masters?

Post by LeighKramer » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:23 pm

I am not that knowledgeable. I do not know if he is/does what you propose.

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