Pain meditation in vipassana

[budo]

I was wondering, if you look at Goenka or Mahasi vipassana based meditation, they tell you to focus on the pain. Let's say you're sitting and you have strong pain in the middle of your back, they'll tell you to note it and focus on it until it fades away, once it fades, to go back to the abdomen in Mahasi meditation. Even if the pain is extremely painful, you should continue to note it until it fades.

Why do they teach this? Does this have any sutta support? All I know is that the Buddha gave examples of 4 types of people who progress, and that the smart and fast develop pleasure (samatha-jhanas) and insight, and that the dumb people are slow and painful (neither pleasure nor insight).

I don't see anywhere in the suttas where the Buddha taught pain meditation. In Samatha based practice, you're not supposed to focus on anything that's not the object, so if you have pain, you ignore it and return to the object (breath for example).

Thank you

[Sam Vara]

I think the instruction is not to focus on pain, but on whatever sensation arises; and to maintain the focus if those sensations are painful. This would be in accordance with MN 10:

'When feeling a painful feeling, he understands "I am feeling a painful feeling"'.

I recall that on the Goenka course, reference is also made to adhitthana, or determination - which is to be cultivated a part of the overall practice.

[Manopubbangama]

“And how does a monk remain focused on feelings in & of themselves? There is the case where a monk, when feeling a painful feeling, discerns, ‘I am feeling a painful feeling.’


When feeling a painful feeling of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a painful feeling of the flesh.’ When feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh.’

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN10.html

And from Mahasi:

Physical Discomfort

While noting the rise and falll of the abdomen, you may feel like you want to swallow or spit out the saliva in your mouth. This should be noted as "wanting to swallow," or "wanting to spit." If a meditator actually swallows or spits, he or she notes it as "swallowing, swallowing" or "spitting, spitting," and immediately returns to noting the rise and fall of the abdomen. If you want to lower your head, note it as "wanting to lower." If you bend the neck to lower the head, note it as "bending, bending," while continuing to focus on every movement involved. Do this slowly, not quickly. Follow the same procedure when bringing the head back up again. Afterwards, go right back to the primary object of the rise and fall of the abdomen.

Some studies make the claim that vipassana helps reduce/manage physical pain:

Mindfulness meditation has been shown to decrease symptoms of fibromyalgia, psoriasis, pain control among patients undergoing bone marrow transplant.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2900099/


I think a common-sense inference about the Middle Path, and the 6 years preceding the Buddha's enlightenment dictate that you should not force yourself into any painful, unnatural situation: just note the discomfort and if you adjust, note that as well: then get back to the breath, wherever you decide to focus on it: at the abdomen, nostrils, etc.

[paul]

The Buddha's main instruction on the correct way to deal with physical pain lies in the Arrow sutta, SN 36.6, which illustrates how the ordinary uninstructed worldling wrongly reacts to pain by seeking pleasure of the flesh:

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress."

[budo]

On the Ajahn Tong Mahasi based retreat I've been on they said to note the pain until it goes away, no matter how painful it is.

[budo]

The Buddha's main instruction on the correct way to deal with physical pain lies in the Arrow sutta, SN 36.6, which illustrates how the ordinary uninstructed worldling wrongly reacts to pain by seeking pleasure of the flesh:

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress."

[salayatananirodha]

This is perhaps why we should not insist that 1) the buddha didn't teach meditation, nor 2) that there being a variety of techniques and teachers is a good thing. Vipassanā itself is not meditation, meditation is jhāna. Focusing on the abdomen is not in any of the suttas that are meditation manuals (correct me if I'm wrong); legs crossed, back erect, and mindfulness set up in front of him. In this way, the arising of phenomena may be clearly seen, as well as their ceasing. Honestly, if you put the satipatthana sutta(s) and the anapanasati sutta ahead of venerable so-and-so or which ever guru, then you are in a better position to determine which if any more modern teachers have taught the correct method.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture — with one foot placed on top of the other — mindful & alert.

[User1249x]

note not only the pain
discern also the inconstancy, fluctuations and the shifting of the feelings and perceptions
dicern the intensifying and subsiding of the sensations
discern the cognized aspect of the phenomena; the unpleasant, the painful
discern the aversion or disliking however it appears
discern the fear, impatience, panic, frustration and whatever tremble, anxiety and overwhelming there may arise on the occasion

[Manopubbangama]

Don't know if highlighting the painful moments of the Buddha's last days is helpful to the OP, but the flavor is logically consistent with excerpts thus far shared:

Then in the Blessed One, after he had eaten Cunda’s meal, there arose a severe disease accompanied with (the passing of) blood, with intense pains & deadly. But the Blessed One endured it—mindful, alert, & not struck down by it.
....
Then in the Blessed One, when he had entered the Rains retreat, there arose a severe disease with intense pains & deadly. But the Blessed One endured it—mindful, alert, & not struck down by it.
....
And there he addressed the monks: “Stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our instruction to you all. And how is a monk mindful? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings… mind… mental qualities in & of themselves—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. This is how a monk is mindful.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN16.html

Also:

"As he is dwelling thus mindful & alert — heedful, ardent, & resolute — a feeling of pain arises in him. He discerns that 'A feeling of pain has arisen in me. It is dependent on a requisite condition, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on this body. Now, this body is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. Being dependent on a body that is inconstant, fabricated, & dependently co-arisen, how can this feeling of pain that has arisen be constant?' He remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the body & to the feeling of pain.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[budo]

Thank you all for the helpful advice, I will try them out.

[Manopubbangama]

Another note: if you feel physical pain in a certain position and the position itself is causing it, you should probably adjust to be mindful in a position that does not exacerbate the pain.

Then the Blessed One — having spent most of the night instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the Kapilavatthu Sakyans with a Dhamma talk — said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, speak to the Kapilavatthu Sakyans about the person who follows the practice for one in training. [2] My back aches. I will rest it."

Ven. Ananda responded, "As you say, lord."

Then the Blessed One, having arranged his outer robe folded in four, lay down on his right side in the lion's sleeping posture, with one foot on top of the other, mindful & alert, having made a mental note to get up.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[pegembara]

The idea is not to learn to bear with the pain but to understand the true nature of rupa/form.

"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...


"So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'

"Any kind of feeling whatever...

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html

[Laurens]

I think it's important to not turn your meditation into some kind of asceticism. Some pains come and go naturally or are tolerable, but if it is severe I'd recommend changing posture. It's probably not going to do your meditation or your body that much good to keep it in a painful position for too long.