Satipatthana vipassana: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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pitakele
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by pitakele » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:55 pm

robertk wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:07 am
for clarity it is good to use the athakatha , the ancient Commentary, which explains in much more detail.....
Of course, if the contemplations given in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta are practised correctly, this will deepen understanding of anattā, but the commentarial text you've provided does not support Khun Sujin's statement.
so there cannot be even the begining of satipatthana...unless one has basic correct intellectual understanding of anatta.
Khun Sujin's statement does not concur with Buddha's instructions below on how to contemplate cattāro satipaṭṭhāna
And how, monks, does a monk fare along contemplating the body in the body? Herein, monks, a monk who is forest-gone or gone to the root of a tree or gone to an empty place, sits down cross-legged, holding his back erect, arousing mindfulness in front of him. Mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out............

And how, monks, does a monk fare along contemplating the feelings in the feelings? Herein, monks, while he is experiencing a pleasant feeling he comprehends: ‘I am experiencing a pleasant feeling'.......

And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu abide contemplating mind as mind? Here a bhikkhu understands mind affected by lust as mind affected by lust.....

And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu abide contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects? Here a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances. And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances? Here, there being sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: ‘There is sensual desire in me’...

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/horner
Satipaṭṭhāna is generally translated as 'foundation, base or establishment of mindfulness'. However, to my understanding, Khun Sujin uses the term satipaṭṭhāna in an idiosyncratic way to denote spontaneous mindfulness which knows the characteristic of an object. It is unlikely that even the commentaries support this usage.

In the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, there are different contemplations which all result in direct knowledge and dispassion - as per the refrains
In this way, monks, he fares along contemplating the body in the body internally, or he fares along contemplating the body in the body externally, or he fares along contemplating the body in the body internally and externally; or he fares along contemplating origination-things in the body, or he fares along contemplating dissolution-things in the body, or he fares along contemplating origination-and-dissolution things in the body; or, thinking, ‘There is the body,’ his mindfulness is established precisely to the extent necessary just for knowledge, just for remembrance, and he fares along independently of and not grasping anything in the world.

* in each instance, subistute 'feelings/mind/mind-objects' for 'body'

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/horner
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pitakele
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pitakele » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:39 pm

robertk wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:07 am
so there cannot be even the begining of satipatthana...unless one has basic correct intellectual understanding of anatta.
Satipaṭṭhāna is generally translated as 'foundation, base or establishment of mindfulness'. However, to my understanding, Khun Sujin uses the term satipaṭṭhāna to denote spontaneous mindfulness which knows the characteristic of an object. Do you have a reference from sutta or commentary which defines satipaṭṭhāna in the way Khun Sujin uses it?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:02 pm

pitakele wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:39 pm
robertk wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:07 am
so there cannot be even the begining of satipatthana...unless one has basic correct intellectual understanding of anatta.
Satipaṭṭhāna is generally translated as 'foundation, base or establishment of mindfulness'. However, to my understanding, Khun Sujin uses the term satipaṭṭhāna to denote spontaneous mindfulness which knows the characteristic of an object. Do you have a reference from sutta or commentary which defines satipaṭṭhāna in the way Khun Sujin uses it?
I am not sure what you mean by spontaneous here.

It would be easier for me if you had some quotes from Sujin about this. Or from Nina van Gorkom's many books.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pitakele » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:35 pm

robertk wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:02 pm
I am not sure what you mean by spontaneous here.

It would be easier for me if you had some quotes from Sujin about this. Or from Nina van Gorkom's many books.
'Spontaneous' is probably not the best word - best ignore it. There are probably audio grabs of Khun Sujin talking about 'moments of satipaṭṭhāna' which is different to the meaning of satipaṭṭhāna in the suttas. I am in a remote location at present & am not able to easily access online talks. Here is a definition of satipaṭṭhāna by Nina. I don't think the first two are found in the suttas or commentaries (at least, not when I searched the term satipaṭṭhāna at tipitaka.org)
Satipatthana has three meanings. It can mean the object of which sati is mindful, classified as the four Applications of mindfulness, including all conditioned namas and rupas. It can mean sati cetasika which is mindful of realities. It can also mean the Path the Buddha and his disciples followed towards the realization of the four noble Truths.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... c2839.html
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:41 am

pitakele wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:35 pm
[

'Spontaneous' is probably not the best word - best ignore it. There are probably audio grabs of Khun Sujin talking about 'moments of satipaṭṭhāna' which is different to the meaning of satipaṭṭhāna in the suttas.
Well it is axiomatic in Theravada that each element, including sati, arises and ceases instantly.
Sati of satipatthana can only arise if the conditions are present and then ceases.
Is this an issue, or in conflict with your understanding?

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pitakele » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:54 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:41 am
Is this an issue, or in conflict with your understanding?
My point is that, as far I can see, there is no basis in the suttas or commentaries for the way the term satipaṭṭhāna is used by Khun Sujin. Sammāsati of the Noble Eightfold Path is expounded the four satipaṭṭhānas. This is not addressed by Khun Sujin & NVG's explanation of satipaṭṭhāna as 'mindfulness of all namas & rupas' - see https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... c2839.html

I know from personal experience that Khun Sujin's 'satipaṭṭhāna method' can work to a certain extent, but I also know that is limited in effectiveness as it diverges from cattaro satipaṭṭhāna of NEP. For example, Buddha stressed that practice of kāyagatāsati is essential for the realization of liberation, but there is no way of comprehending the importance of kāyagatāsati from Khun Sujin's viewpoint
Mendicants, those who haven’t practiced mindfulness of the body haven’t practiced the deathless. Those who have practiced mindfulness of the body have practiced the deathless.
https://suttacentral.net/an1.616-627/en/sujato
Due to the narrowness of Khun Sujin's 'method', many aspects of Buddha's teachings which contradict it are either incorrectly assimilated into it or else ignored by her and her students. As Western Dhamma students with full access to the teachings, we should examine a teacher's words carefully to see if they conform to the texts or not.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:28 pm

pitakele wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:54 am
robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:41 am
Is this an issue, or in conflict with your understanding?
This is not addressed by Khun Sujin & NVG's explanation of satipaṭṭhāna as 'mindfulness of all namas & rupas' -
, Buddha stressed that practice of kāyagatāsati is essential for the realization of liberation, but there is no way of comprehending the importance of kāyagatāsati from Khun Sujin's viewpoint
Mendicants, those who haven’t practiced mindfulness of the body haven’t practiced the deathless. Those who have practiced mindfulness of the body have practiced the deathless.
https://suttacentral.net/an1.616-627/en/sujato
.
What is kaya if not rupa ?

But why not begin with the first section of the satipatthana sutta, which deals with anapanasati. Some people believe that the satipatthana sutta is like a step by step manual, begin with breath, master that, then onto modes of deportment, etc..

Or they think they can just choose a topic, such as kayanupassana like

From the satipatthana sutta commentary
http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryBod ... ulsiveness
The Section of Reflection on the Modes of Materiality

The Master having explained body-contemplation in the form of reflection on the repulsiveness of the thirty-two parts of the body, said: "And further", now, to set forth body-contemplation by way of reflection on the modes (or elements) of materiality.

Indeed the earnest bhikkhu comprehends thus: The material and mental qualities which existed at the east end of the ambulatory passed away just there without reaching the west end of the ambulatory. The material and mental qualities which existed at the west end of the ambulatory, too, passed away just there without reaching the east end of the ambulatory. The material and mental
In fact whatever is contemplated , if it is satipatthana, is matter and mental ( nama-rupa).

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robertk
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Re: Satipatthana vipassana: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:32 pm

In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 it says

"In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc."

As the quote from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to certain objects does not lead to detachment from the idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just a cetasika, itself conditioned by various factors, and so ephemeral.

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Re: Satipatthana vipassana: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:18 pm

Buddha stressed that practice of kāyagatāsati is essential for the realization of liberation, but there is no way of comprehending the importance of kāyagatāsati from Khun Sujin's viewpoint
Nina replied to someone who spoke about repulsiveness of body:

https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/115825


I believe it is MUCH more dispassion producing to focus on the
aging, hair greying, skin wrinkling and all the indignities of
aging and dying

Lying on the bed grasping for air, blood feeling like acid burning,
the mind in a hazy fog and headache, the loosing control of the
bladder, bowels, brain misfiring and producing hallucinations, etc
- is much more scary and nibbida producing... I can see why some
people (who are very attached to the body) can avoid looking at
this aspect and try to turn attention to something more sanitary
and less relevant
...
-------
N: Reading your post I can feel so much with you. These are your own
experiences.
Not everyone is inclined to go straight to fleeting ruupas our body
consists of, I understand!
But there is a difference between suffering and pondering over all
these ailments and a beginning of understanding that what we take for
body are only elements. Conditioned ruupas. It depends on a person's
inclinations whether he sees the value of this or not. We can prove
to ourselves whether the pa~n~naa that directly experience realities
leads even to a little more more detachment or not.
Under the Application of Mindfulness of the Body are included parts
of the body, corpses in different states of decay. When we are
forgetful we cling to my important, beautiful body. But when we learn
about nails, teeth, skin, we are reminded that there is not much left
of what we take for the whole body we cling to. Only some
insignificant parts. This can lead us to the truth more directly. In
fact, the body consists of the tiniest elements that do not stay for
a split second. Hardness of the body is real but it cannot stay, and
even pain caused by many diseases is there only for a moment. No self
who can control anything, only impersonal elements arising because of
conditions and then gone.
When suffering so much there is also thinking about it and I believe
that thinking will not lead to the eradication of clinging and wrong
view. We should know that we take the body for 'my body', even though
we say that it is anattaa. This clinging with wrong view is so deeply
rooted, very hard to notice it and to develop understanding of it.
-------
A:... You can't really get to the root of your attachment to self
until you've looked at where your most blatant day-to-day, moment-
to-moment attachment is: right here at the body. The least little
thing happens to your body and you can't stand it. A little bit of
hunger, a little bit of thirst, too much heat, too much cold sets
you running off. A little bit of illness and you go running for
medicine. If that's not attachment, what is?"
------
N: You expressed this situation very well. Too much heat or cold and
there we are: distress conditioned by attachment. Can there be more
understanding of the elements of heat and cold as they are? We cannot
direct these as to our liking, beyond control. It seems a long way:
to become familiar with characteristics such as heat or hardness
appearing at the present moment so that pa~n~naa will be able to see
them as non-self later on. A long way, going through all the stages
of insight, but a sure way. Understanding can make all the difference
in our life.
-------
Nina

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robertk
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Re: Satipatthana vipassana: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:35 pm

extract from book Dhamma in Cambodia by Nina van Gorrkom

Sujin: What rúpas are there in the body?

But Sawong: There are coldness, heat, softness and hardness in the body.

Sujin: Thus, if the rúpas that are coldness, heat, softness or hardness do
not appear, can one know their characteristics? When softness of the body
appears there is the characteristic of the rúpa that is softness. The rúpa
of softness outside is also softness. It is the same with the rúpas of heat
or cold that are outside, rúpa is only rúpa and it does not belong to
anybody. Wherever a rúpa arises, it falls away, but one does not know this.
Paññå is the reality that has right understanding of the dhammas that are
real, it should correctly understand them so that the clinging to the wrong
view that rúpa is self can be abandoned. If someone says that paññå has
right understanding of rúpa, thus, that pañña realizes rúpa as rúpa,
non-self, there must be characteristics of rúpa appearing that paññå can
correctly understand. Therefore, paññå can know as it is a characteristic of
a rúpa that naturally appears in the body. The understanding of the
characteristics of realities must be developed in a natural way. However, if
someone has not heard the Dhamma, he does not understand realities. He is
not aware of rúpa and he does not know what characteristic rúpa has. How
could he know that rúpa is not self, not ³I²?

When someone has listened to the Dhamma, he can understand that everything
that arises must fall away. There isn¹t anything that belongs to a self, all
realities are non-self. When we have really understood this, we can
investigate the rúpa that appears in the body and we can know what its
characteristic is. At that moment there is sati that is aware of a
characteristic of rúpa appearing in the body and thus, there can gradually
be the correct understanding that this is only a type of reality. In that
way paññå will be able to realize the arising and falling away of rúpa.
Paññå can understand: first nothing appears, then there is reality, and
after that there is no reality to be found [6]. When paññå realizes the
characteristic of rúpa that arises and then falls away, it knows that there
is no owner of the reality which is there and which then, after that, is not
to be found, since it has disappeared. True pañña is able to know the
characteristic of the dhamma that is real at this moment. This is something
one should think over and not forget: if paññå does not know the
characteristic of the reality that appears at this moment, what does paññå
know?
-------
footnote:
6. A reality does not come from anywhere when it arises, it does not exist
before its arising. Therefore one

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Re: Satipatthana vipassana: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by paul » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:33 pm

Quote: “Well it is axiomatic in Theravada that each element, including sati, arises and ceases instantly. “

Mindfulness includes the element of memory and is a contemplative process, so it is not profitable to conceptualize it as momentary:

“And which is the faculty of sati? There is the case where a disciple of the
noble ones has sati, is endowed with excellent proficiency in sati,
remembering & recollecting what was done and said a long time ago. He
remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & having sati—
subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains
focused on feelings in & of themselves… the mind in & of itself… mental
qualities in & of themselves—ardent, alert, & having sati—subduing greed
& distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of sati.” —
SN 48:10
This definition of right sati falls into two parts. In the first sentence, the
Buddha is obviously retaining the meaning of its Sanskrit cognate—
remembrance—showing how sati, when developed to the point of being a
faculty, or dominant factor in the mind, is able to remember words and actions
far into the past.”—-“Right Mindfulness”, Thanissaro.




Quote: “When someone has listened to the Dhamma, he can understand that everything
that arises must fall away.”

It is necessary to follow the right procedure in approaching anatta, that is through the gateway of impermanence:

"Bhikkhus, how do you conceive it: is form permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent painful or pleasant?" — "Painful, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir.”—-SN 22:59

There is a ‘cart before the horse’ tendency among the computer generation to debate anatta because it is a mental concept and so more attractive to them than the physicality of impermanence. On the other hand if the practitioner works on impermanence then the other two marks of existence automatically make themselves known, as the Buddha says.

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