Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

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ganegaar
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Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by ganegaar » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:52 am

When I meditate Anapanasati, I am just aware of my breath, and after some time comes a phase where I get sudden "sighs", it is a very short involuntary sigh, almost shakes my entire body at times!. It is as though i was out of breath, and suddenly try to gasp. At times the sigh is so powerful that i tend to open my eyes and kind of thrown away from where i was!.

This might come after say about 30 minutes of sitting, and then might repeat every 2 or 3 minutes sometimes, and sometimes goes away for longer periods.
When it comes, I think my mind is sort of restless (some sort of uddacca/kukkucca), and also the concentration is rather diluted.

Do anyone have similar experiences?
Do I need to correct something, what would it be?

Any other advice is welcome!, thank you.
Please note that, I am not a absolute beginner, but I am not an advanced mediator either!.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:36 pm

ganegaar wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:52 am
It is as though i was out of breath, and suddenly try to gasp.
It might be exactly that. Maybe some residual tension, maybe not breathing deeply enough?
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ganegaar
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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by ganegaar » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:25 pm

Thank you,
maybe not breathing deeply enough?
I am trying not to control breath, just to observe..can it be subconciosly i am making it shorter?
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Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:54 pm

Collectedness of In-&-Out Breathing

"Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit?

"There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.[1] Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'[5]

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'

"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit.
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ganegaar
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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by ganegaar » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:24 am

Thank you,
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:54 pm
Collectedness of In-&-Out Breathing
"There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.[1] Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'
Yes, I am at the first tetrad of Anapanasati sutta, mostly in the steps 2 I should say. I've not experienced step 1 that frequently.

So, deep sudden sighs can be a consequence of short breathing? No, it might not be, if it is so, it would have being common to find references.
As I suspected before, I think it is some sort of an agitation, a restless mind.

May be this is to do with, I need to "Train" my self, in steps 3 and 4. How to switch from "Observing" to "Training"..., that should be a different topic I guess, but let us see whether there would be more comments on this OP.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:13 am

ganegaar wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:52 am
When I meditate Anapanasati, I am just aware of my breath, and after some time comes a phase where I get sudden "sighs", it is a very short involuntary sigh, almost shakes my entire body at times!. It is as though i was out of breath, and suddenly try to gasp. At times the sigh is so powerful that i tend to open my eyes and kind of thrown away from where i was!.

This might come after say about 30 minutes of sitting, and then might repeat every 2 or 3 minutes sometimes, and sometimes goes away for longer periods.

When it comes, I think my mind is sort of restless (some sort of uddacca/kukkucca), and also the concentration is rather diluted.
It might simply be stored or residual stress & tension; similar to when people 'sigh' when they wind-down after a busy day.

Keep in mind, the teaching of Anapanasati includes experiencing short-breathing, for this very reason.

As you have posted, you are already aware this period of short or difficult breathing is impermanent; merely a passing phase.

Again, keep in mind, the ultimate teaching in Anapanasati is as follows:
...the monk on that occasion remains... ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

... He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches on with equanimity...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Whatever occurs in meditation, including the body shaking or opening the eyes, try to view it with equanimity; without greed or distress.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:27 am

ganegaar wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:25 pm
Thank you,
maybe not breathing deeply enough?
I am trying not to control breath, just to observe..can it be subconciosly i am making it shorter?
Perhaps. I have a tendency to hold my breath when I feel tense, I'm not sure why exactly!

What might help is deliberately taking a few deep breaths when this happens. Also make sure your body is physically relaxed for the practice - starting with a short body scan might help. One of my teachers used to describe the ideal approach to meditation as "alert yet relaxed", which I think describes it quite well.
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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by ganegaar » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:11 am

Thank you.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:13 am
Whatever occurs in meditation, including the body shaking or opening the eyes, try to view it with equanimity; without greed or distress.
Thank you for reminding me, it's been a very helpful advice, to keep reference to satipattana.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by ganegaar » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:17 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:27 am
What might help is deliberately taking a few deep breaths when this happens. Also make sure your body is physically relaxed for the practice - starting with a short body scan might help. One of my teachers used to describe the ideal approach to meditation as "alert yet relaxed", which I think describes it quite well.
Thank you, it has been very helpful advice. Specially taking few deep breaths and more importantly to stay relaxed.
body scan for some reason feels rather heavy to me, my mind does not like to move!, as though it is a huge weight, my mind tend to feel rather tired. may be it is a sort of lethargy, or lack of effort, may be it does not suit my mind at this point of time. Being aware of the posture, like "sitting", as in satipattana sutta worked though. But thank you for bringing this up to my notice, without your comment I would have not thought of falling back to being just aware of my posture and just relax.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:19 am

Id give simple Anapanasati instruction like this;

Mindful of the entire Body,
Mindful the Posture
One establishes mindfulness on the Breath.

Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

Further;

Resolving on experiencing Mental&Physical Pleasure
Resolving on calming body and mind
Mindfully breathing in and breathing out

One remains mindful of Feelings and Sensations as one mindfully breathes in and out, focused on calming the body and mind, resolving on pleasure and tranquility. As a person who walks fast would resolve to walk slower.

Further the last part is investigating and noticing;

inconstancy
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.'

AN 7.46
"'The perception of inconstancy, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of inconstancy, his mind shrinks away from gains, offerings, & fame, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance.

dispassion [literally, fading]
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.'

AN 7.46 "'The perception of distaste for every world, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of distaste for every world, his mind shrinks away from worldly embellishments, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance.

I would probably also train this

Also AN 7.46 "'The perception of stress in what is inconstant, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of stress in what is inconstant, a fierce perception of danger & fear is established in him toward idleness, indolence, laziness, heedlessness, lack of commitment, & lack of reflection, as if toward a murderer with an upraised sword.

Other aspects i have not analyzed much but one can think within theme of the Dhamma in general. Also very important to accomodate for state of mind;
Sluggish/Tired Mind
"At such times, monks, as the mind is sluggish, that is the wrong time to cultivate the enlightenment-factor[1] of tranquillity, the enlightenment-factor of concentration, the enlightenment-factor of equanimity. What is the reason? A sluggish mind is hard to arouse by these factors.
"But, monks, when the mind is sluggish, that is the right time to cultivate the enlightenment-factor of investigation-of-states, the enlightenment-factor of energy, the enlightenment-factor of rapture.[2] What is the reason? A sluggish mind is easy to arouse by these factors.
Aroused/Active/Agitated Mind
"Monks, when the mind is agitated,[3] that is the wrong time to cultivate the enlightenment-factors of investigation-of-states, of energy, of rapture. Why? An agitated mind is hard to calm through these factors.
"When the mind is agitated, that is the right time to cultivate the enlightenment-factors of tranquillity, concentration, equanimity. Why? Because an agitated mind is easy to calm[4] through these factors.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by JohnK » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:34 pm

This book by Buddhadassa Bhikkhu is a thorough and clear guide to anapanasati (though it does not say that in the title or sub-title, so it could be missed). Definitely worth reading (I have liked everything of his that I have read).
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/mindfulness-breathing
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by ganegaar » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:26 pm

Thank you!.
JohnK wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:34 pm
This book by Buddhadassa Bhikkhu is a thorough and clear guide to anapanasati https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/mindfulness-breathing
I have ordered the book, thank you very much!.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by ganegaar » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:19 am
Id give simple Anapanasati instruction like this...
Thank you, rightviewftw. Yes, I am familiar with the sutta, but the instructions are far far summerised there it seems, and to deal with specific situations I probably need guidance from experienced teachers and friends.
Specifically, the "calming the bodily formations..", what exactly that means? how to practice that?
when the mind is lethargic/dull, how to practice? (or rather what to practice)
when the mind is restless/agitated, how to practice? (or rather what to practice)
when the mind is difussed and focus is vague, diluted, how to practice?

Now the thing is, it looks the primary objective is not to keep the mind in one place, yet it is also to keep the mind in one place!. As anapanasati sutta in its 16 steps, at times it looks a natural progression, at times it looks just a set of instructions to pick where it suites the state of mind.
But I am just novice here, so I simply don't yet know, may be I have a very vague idea about what its all about!.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:13 pm

ganegaar wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 pm
Specifically, the "calming the bodily formations..", what exactly that means? how to practice that?
Same as an angry or very excited person would be taking deep breaths to calm down.
"But, monks, when the mind is sluggish, that is the right time to cultivate the enlightenment-factor of investigation-of-states, the enlightenment-factor of energy, the enlightenment-factor of rapture.[2] What is the reason? A sluggish mind is easy to arouse by these factors.
The Dozing mind need not be calmed down and concentrated. It is already calm and concetrated but it is lazy thats why it is drifting (how i understand it).
One would resolve on mental and physical pleasure
One would be reflecting on the Dullness of Mind, Inconstancy, Impermanence, Death it will arouse Persistence and Joy in him.
ganegaar wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 pm
when the mind is restless/agitated, how to practice? (or rather what to practice)
"When the mind is agitated, that is the right time to cultivate the enlightenment-factors of tranquillity, concentration, equanimity. Why? Because an agitated mind is easy to calm[4] through these factors.
Excited/Restless mind need to be calmed down.
One resolves on calming the mind, relaxing thoughts, removing distracting thoughts,
calming the breath, calming bodily movements, tranquilizing the mind.
One resolves on Concentrating the mind on one theme, focusing the one's effort on the task at hand.
One need not resolve on arousing pleasure, once the mind concentrated it will become serene and tranquil by itself.

These Suttas are very complicated and it is rather loosely how i interperet it. This is certainly not perfect info but i think it is more or less correct actually.

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Re: Need help on Anapanasati - short sighs

Post by Hiheyhello » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:17 pm

Admin, please deactivate my account. TIA
Last edited by Hiheyhello on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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