Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

DarwidHalim wrote:In jhana, there is no contemplation. Based on what I know, if we try to contemplate something, we will lose our jhana.

There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.

So is contemplation equivalent to vitakka/viccara, or papanca, or something else?

I think the word contemplate needs to be defined very well.

Does it involve thinking or not?

Based on what I know it involves thinking process.

We can see something. Just by seeing, without thinking process, we can understand something. Like eating an orange, we do not to think or contemplate, just by chewing it, we can fully know 100% what is orange taste. Purely, nakedly, freshly, and free from labeling.

We can also contemplate something. The problem is it involves thinking process. To some extend we are playing with thoughts and concepts.

Some of us, may think contemplate doesn't need thinking process. If this is the case, I think the word contemplate can be valid.

Please go to this link:

http://www.bhavanasociety.org/pdfs/Shou ... _Jhana.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are a lot of misconception actually about Jhana. Some people say Samantha Jhana. Some people say Vipassana Jhana.

For me, I belong to right Jhana is the state where it can only be achieve when Samantha + Vipassana work hand in hand.

I found this:
Sutta Pitaka
Samyutta Nikaya
Division III Ý Khandhaka
Book 33 Ý Jhana Samyutta
Chapter 1 Ý Jhana Vagga
At: http://realtruthlife.blogspot.com/2011/ ... jhana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A Portion:
"..........
33. 1. 1.

Samadhi Samapatti Ý Concentration Attainments

1. I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi.

2. The Blessed One addressed the monks from there:

3. ßMonks, these four develop concentration. What four?

4. ßMonks, a certain one developing concentration (jhana) is clever in bringing the mind to one point (samadhi), not clever in attainments (samapatti).

5. ßMonks, a certain one developing concentration is clever in attainments, not clever in bringing the mind to one point.

6. ßMonks, a certain one developing concentration is neither clever in bringing the mind to one point nor clever in attainments.

7. ßMonks, a certain one developing concentration is clever in bringing the mind to one point and clever in attainments.

8. ßMonks, of these four developing concentration the one who is clever in bringing the mind to one point and clever in attainments is the foremost, the chief, the released, the noble, and the excellent.

9. ßJust as the cow gives milk, from milk is curd, from curd butter, from butter ghee, and from ghee the cream of ghee, in the same manner, a person clever in bringing the mind to one point and clever in attainments is the foremost, the chief, the released, the noble, and the excellent.û



( Sutta 33. 1. 1., with the indicated changes, is repeated for suttas 2. through 19.)



33. 1. 2. òhiti Ý Stability

... re ... clever in stability ... clever in bringing the mind to one point ... re ...



33. 1. 3. Vuññhàna Ý Rising

re ... clever in bringing the mind to one point ... clever in rising from it ...
...............
.............
..........."

Just to explain what is going on here: Section 33.1.1 gives the exact wording for Sutta #1 and it also is the general form of all of the different Suttas of Section 33.....each verse contains the same words with a different pair of characteristcs.......for example if from Section 33.1.1 you remove "in bringing the mind to one point (samadhi)" and in its place put "clever in stability " and also remove "clever in attainments (samapatti)" and in its place put "clever in bringing the mind to one point" then this will be the wording foe Section 33.1.2 which is the wording for Sutta #2. In short by replacing two phrases you generate a new Sutta.
This system goes all the way to Section 33.1.55 which means that there are 55 pair wise replacements which can be made....this seems like a really bizarre structure and I don't really understand what the point is to this because it always seems like whoever is good at both characteristics is the best of the four.....but that is not what interested me. What interests me is the idea in Section 33.1.3 which is in the quote above but I'll copy it here again:

33. 1. 3. Vuññhàna Ý Rising

re ... clever in bringing the mind to one point ... clever in rising from it ...
..............."
What interests me is the "clever in rising from it".....this suggests that there is an ability which is not developed in all meditators (I'm pretty sure they are talking about jhana here because the title of this section is "Book 33 Ý Jhana Samyutta") called "clever in rising from it".....doe anyone know what this means....or can shed any light on this. The conncection to this topic is that one view is that jhana ends before contemplation begins and if that is so then is there a stage in the jhana/contemplation process called "rising from jhana" which goes between the two? Even putting this question aside it interested me to see the different characteristics that are presented concerning jhana....many of which I never would have guessed were relevant such as "acts carefully", "clever in suitability", "clever in pasture" (which a footnote explains as being finding a suitable place), "clever in resolution"...and many more.....Also...I don't see why all of this is presented unless it is meant to be a list of important things to consider when working on perfecting jhana......what do people make of this?

Also, note that "acts carefully" might imply some physical action but maybe it means mental action?
Also, note that "clever in suitability" might be talking about a suitable theme for contemplation?
I don't know.....this group of Suttas seems very bizarre and points to stuff in a way I've never seen before........
chownah

DarwidHalim,
Great link...I haven't read all of it but it looks like it is saying that one maintains jhana while doing the contemplations....is that how you interpret it?
chownah

While some may say "part of jhana" and others may say "it follows jhana" jhana certainly is not liberation and contemplation isn't either.

Kind regards

This thread seems related:
Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Now if one follows a teacher who says "part of jhana" then one may be inclined to say "part of jhana" and practice accordingly and if one follows a teacher who says "it follows jhana" then one may be inclined to say "it follows jhana" and practice accordingly.

Kind regards

DarwidHalim wrote:Please go to this link:

http://www.bhavanasociety.org/pdfs/Shou ... _Jhana.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Funnily enough in his dissertation Analysis of the Jhanas Bhante Henepola Gunaratana seems to be saying exactly the opposite to what he seems to be saying in the link provided by DarwidHalim as to "part of jhana or does it follow jhana?"

Analysis of the Jhanas is a very comprehensive work I would like to recommend.


Kind regards

TMingyur wrote:Generally jhanas and/or form and formless "attainments" may be thought about in two ways:
1. states of absorption
2. transient momentary "phases" or even "momentary events"

Considering the Buddha's teachings I think that only view 2 is appropriate and conducive.

Could you say why? It seems to me "states of absorption" is a more accurate description of jhana.

Spiny

Spiny O'Norman wrote:

TMingyur wrote:Generally jhanas and/or form and formless "attainments" may be thought about in two ways:
1. states of absorption
2. transient momentary "phases" or even "momentary events"

Considering the Buddha's teachings I think that only view 2 is appropriate and conducive.

Could you say why? It seems to me "states of absorption" is a more accurate description of jhana.

Spiny

The intended meaning was:
"absorption" is resting or dwelling in what actually isn't worth it in the context of the goal.
In contrast to this "transient momentary event" refers to the event of merely abandoning what has to abandoned anyway but then go ahead immediately instead of resting and delighting.

Kind regards

TMingyur wrote:

Spiny O'Norman wrote:

TMingyur wrote:Generally jhanas and/or form and formless "attainments" may be thought about in two ways:
1. states of absorption
2. transient momentary "phases" or even "momentary events"

Considering the Buddha's teachings I think that only view 2 is appropriate and conducive.

Could you say why? It seems to me "states of absorption" is a more accurate description of jhana.

Spiny

The intended meaning was:
"absorption" is resting or dwelling in what actually isn't worth it in the context of the goal.
In contrast to this "transient momentary event" refers to the event of merely abandoning what has to abandoned anyway but then go ahead immediately instead of resting and delighting.

Kind regards

Maybe "stages of absorption" captures it better? Or maybe "stages of concentration"? So it's a dynamic progression, not a state that one gets stuck in.
I assume you're not arguing that concentration is unecessary?

Spiny

Yes and no.

Anupada Sutta: One After Another

The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.

Spiny O'Norman wrote:

TMingyur wrote:
The intended meaning was:
"absorption" is resting or dwelling in what actually isn't worth it in the context of the goal.
In contrast to this "transient momentary event" refers to the event of merely abandoning what has to abandoned anyway but then go ahead immediately instead of resting and delighting.

Kind regards

Maybe "stages of absorption" captures it better? Or maybe "stages of concentration"? So it's a dynamic progression, not a state that one gets stuck in.
I assume you're not arguing that concentration is unecessary?

Spiny

When analyzing an object one should concentrate on it. Otherwise analysis is impossible.
Or when seeking states as a temporary dwelling the mind has to be collected in a modus operandi that is appropriate.

From my point of view the former is necessary while the latter is not.

kind regards