Did anyone here attain jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
rowyourboat
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by rowyourboat » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:46 pm

Viscid wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:I think as long as we avoid creating conceited 'teacher' roles for ourselves and just help people out with kindness, to the best of the abilities that we posses, then there is nothing wrong in that. It is easy to become attached to being a 'teacher' or 'attained' to this stage or other - leave all that behind - they are just more self-views (sakkaya ditti) caused by not properly recognising the five aggregates within.
:goodpost:

There needs to be an internal evaluation of one's desires for teaching: Is it because you want to be respected by others, or because you want to help them selflessly? Though I'd imagine if one is particularly deluded, they'd just convince themselves that they're being selfless..
Just keep at it, Viscid! :)

With metta

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With Metta

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Viscid
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Viscid » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:12 pm

rowyourboat wrote: Just keep at it, Viscid! :)
:embarassed:
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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mikenz66
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:00 pm

Thanks Geoff for the interesting historical perspective.
Ñāṇa wrote: Buddhists discussing, debating, and disagreeing with other Buddhists on a variety of subjects is almost as ancient as Buddhism itself.

This particular subject of debate appears in the Kathāvatthu, where, for a number of reasons, the proposed resolution isn't very convincing. It also appears in the Abhidharmakośabhāsya in terms somewhat related to certain aspects of contemporary discussions of the subject. After presenting both sides of the debate, Vasubandhu concludes by saying the following:
  • A certain school maintains the system that has been presented, but the ancient masters (pūrvācārya-s) are not in agreement on this. Consequently the point should be further examined.
If a learned Indian scholar monk of the caliber of Vasubandhu couldn't find a satisfactory resolution to the subtler points of disagreement, then we shouldn't be surprised or bothered by the fact that it is still a subject of debate 1600 years later.
tiltbillings wrote:And it probably not a bad thing that there is such variation in the understanding of what jhana encompasses.
Ñāṇa wrote: And the fact that the discussion is still presently occurring at all is a very good thing. It's a sign of a healthy, vibrant, living tradition peopled by diverse individuals who are actually interested in practice. Otherwise, Buddhist meditation would be little more than an academic curiosity and the sutta records and classical meditation manuals just dusty museum pieces.
Yes. It continues to surprise me when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars, rather than read as fascinating ongoing discussion about practice.

:anjali:
Mike

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daverupa
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by daverupa » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:39 pm

I'm also very grateful for the recent flurry of jhana discussion the forum has fielded of late. It's been very edifying to have access to such succinct and comprehensive discussions.
mikenz66 wrote:... when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars...
:strawman:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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mikenz66
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:45 pm

Hi Freauwaru,
Freawaru wrote: The question is: do you want to think in terms of authority or in terms of expertism? An authority is a guru, a leader. An expert is someone you consult regarding a specific problem, may it be scriptural or meditative. There is no authority at all when you think in terms of expertism. And thus no leading astray.
Perhaps I didn't explain myself well.

If I see a question that I think I can answer from my experience, but I know has been written/spoken about by a teacher I trust I prefer to give a quotation from that teacher, and say "My experience is consistent with what X says here...". It's not a question of "authority". The point is that those teachers have explained the issues to thousands of students, so their explanation will tend to be better, and more general, than mine would be.

My impression from discussions with various teachers and friends is that practising in certain ways leads to somewhat predictable results, at least on the level of my practise (I can't comment on the more advanced levels of insight discussed by ancient and modern teachers...). On a Goenka retreat it seems common to get that "dissolving" feeling that Goenka describes as "bhangha". With Mahasi-style retreat practice it seems common to observe the motion of one's feet or abdomen become discontinuous, like under a strobe light in the disco... So it seems to me to be sensible to point a questioner at general discussions of them, rather than just answer using one's own experience, since the exact experiences do vary from person to person.

:anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:51 pm

daverupa wrote:I'm also very grateful for the recent flurry of jhana discussion the forum has fielded of late. It's been very edifying to have access to such succinct and comprehensive discussions.
mikenz66 wrote:... when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars...
:strawman:
Really? I see rather a lot of :strawman: wheeled out in your posts.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p139857" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


:anjali:
Mike

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daverupa
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by daverupa » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:57 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
daverupa wrote:I'm also very grateful for the recent flurry of jhana discussion the forum has fielded of late. It's been very edifying to have access to such succinct and comprehensive discussions.
mikenz66 wrote:... when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars...
:strawman:
Really? I see rather a lot of :strawman: wheeled out in your posts.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p139857" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


:anjali:
Mike
And I sometimes struggle to accept the criticism, yet I do, and I really strive to avoid it. I thought you might be appreciative of having it pointed out on your end, however rare. :shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:08 pm

daverupa wrote:I'm also very grateful for the recent flurry of jhana discussion the forum has fielded of late. It's been very edifying to have access to such succinct and comprehensive discussions.
mikenz66 wrote:... when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars...
:strawman:
And your basis for your claim that Mike's statement is a strawman?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Reductor
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Reductor » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:43 pm

Five pages. Not bad.
:popcorn:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:46 pm

thereductor wrote:Five pages. Not bad.
:popcorn:
And alot of it is actually rather interesting and useful.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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DNS
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by DNS » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:50 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:I'm also very grateful for the recent flurry of jhana discussion the forum has fielded of late. It's been very edifying to have access to such succinct and comprehensive discussions.
mikenz66 wrote:... when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars...
:strawman:
And your basis for your claim that Mike's statement is a strawman?
I was thinking the same thing.

daverupa may not agree with Mike's point, but that doesn't make Mike's point a straw man. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike's point is about the jhanas and the elder commentators which is on-topic and is not changing the position of any side here, just making a comment.

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daverupa
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by daverupa » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:07 pm

I mistakenly read an attribution into the complaint, which was not there. Sorry, yet again... wow, I'm done for a while I think, this is happening a lot recently.

:embarassed:

:buddha1:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:11 pm

daverupa wrote:I mistakenly read an attribution into the complaint, which was not there. Sorry, yet again... wow, I'm done for a while I think, this is happening a lot recently.

:embarassed:

:buddha1:
Thank you for acknowledging that. It is not always easy.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:42 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And it probably not a bad thing that there is such variation in the understanding of what jhana encompasses.
And the fact that the discussion is still presently occurring at all is a very good thing. It's a sign of a healthy, vibrant, living tradition peopled by diverse individuals who are actually interested in practice. Otherwise, Buddhist meditation would be little more than an academic curiosity and the sutta records and classical meditation manuals just dusty museum pieces.

All the best,

Geoff
And part of this ongoing discussion is, of course, such works as the commentaries and Buddhaghosa. Just because something such as khaṇikasamādhi, moment-to-moment concentration, drawn out in the commentaries, that does not mean it is is not a useful concept reflecting actual experience. The ongoing dialogue and debates can be useful.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Nyana
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Nyana » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:And part of this ongoing discussion is, of course, such works as the commentaries and Buddhaghosa. Just because something such as khaṇikasamādhi, moment-to-moment concentration, drawn out in the commentaries, that does not mean it is is not a useful concept reflecting actual experience. The ongoing dialogue and debates can be useful.
Of course. A point that isn't often mentioned is that a number of the most widely practiced Buddhist meditation lineages each practice different variations of mindfulness meditation. Not only Theravāda Vipassanā lineages, but also Sōtō Zen, Kagyu Mahāmudrā, and Nyingma Dzogchen are each a unique version of mindfulness meditation.

The only thing that I've ever taken issue with on this subject is the claim made by a few modern Theravādins who maintain that they've rediscovered the Buddha's actual "jhāna," and that everyone else, practicing khaṇikasamādhi mindfulness and so on, has got it all wrong.

All the best,

Geoff

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