rowyourboat wrote:I think it is weakness of Buddhism that it is tolerant and 'anything goes' attitude is allowed to ferment, often at the cost of the teachings becoming something other than what was intended. Historically it has been shown that this is one of the leading causes of destruction of Buddhism in lands where it existed previously.
It is indeed an unfortunate dynamic that has emerged within Buddhism. I myself am not familiar with the historical context involving the dhamma's dying out in various regions, but I have witnessed it for sure on a smaller scale. However, I cannot agree that my views fall under an "anything goes" attitude.
Why do you think so many teachers downplay Jhana? I've so often been given the impression that Jhana is inessential. At the same time Jhana is so often recommend by the Buddha in the Suttas.
May you be happy. May you be a peace. May you be free from suffering. http://www.everythingspirals.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As this is the meditation (general) section, can you post some of the 'downplays' and some of the Suttas that you are referring to please?
with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Moth wrote:Why do you think so many teachers downplay Jhana? I've so often been given the impression that Jhana is inessential. At the same time Jhana is so often recommend by the Buddha in the Suttas.
Hi Moth,
the Buddha does more than just 'recommend' jhana. The four jhanas constitute 'limb number eight' of the Noble Eightfold Path! We are supposed to develop sammasamadhi, just like all the other limbs of the Path. As for some teachers downplaying jhana, well none of mine do that, so I cannot comment on that issue.
- with metta.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Because these teachers' conception of jhana is something different from what the Buddha actualy thaught. They think it's an even more absorbed state where the senses are shut down and there is no possibility of doing vipassana while in these states. Unsurprisingly, they think these more absorbed states are relatively useless and that there is the danger of one geting lost in doing this type of "jhana" the rest of their lives without striving for liberation.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Moth wrote:Why do you think so many teachers downplay Jhana? I've so often been given the impression that Jhana is inessential. At the same time Jhana is so often recommend by the Buddha in the Suttas.
Jhāna is listed as 8th factor of N8P. There are 7 factors that needs to be accomplished prior to Jhāna as part of sammā-samādhi.
Furthermore:
"Whatever streams are in the world, it is mindfulness that obstructs them and restricts them, and by wisdom they are cut off." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That doesn't make much sense Alex. I would be very curious to see where is that stated in the suttas, but in another thread.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
tiltbillings wrote:Also, this thread does not need to be duplicated here.
I agree.
This thread will be locked. So please join the discussion in the linked thread above.
The two threads will be merged shortly.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
this is my understanding
those who follow the 8 noble path
develop Jhana as requirement for steam entry
then they attain the stream entry with instant without Jhana because it has been attain before.
those who attain supramundane Jhana, right away attain Jhana and stream entry
those who do not follow 8 noble path but attain Jhana, does not attain stream entry
thats about it.
metta
manasikara wrote:..the Buddha does more than just 'recommend' jhana. The four jhanas constitute 'limb number eight' of the Noble Eightfold Path! We are supposed to develop sammasamadhi, just like all the other limbs of the Path. As for some teachers downplaying jhana, well none of mine do that, so I cannot comment on that issue.
That's the way I understand it. I'm also puzzled by the way some teachers regard jhana as a distraction rather than an essential aspect of practice.
manasikara wrote:..the Buddha does more than just 'recommend' jhana. The four jhanas constitute 'limb number eight' of the Noble Eightfold Path! We are supposed to develop sammasamadhi, just like all the other limbs of the Path. As for some teachers downplaying jhana, well none of mine do that, so I cannot comment on that issue.
That's the way I understand it. I'm also puzzled by the way some teachers regard jhana as a distraction rather than an essential aspect of practice.
Spiny
No need to be vague here. What teachers and what do they say?
>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
according to some suttas
there is attaining of stream entry
without Jhana completely
i would put this in category
of faith follower
and dry insight
i do not see how this, is actually done.
Gena1480 wrote:according to some suttas
there is attaining of stream entry
without Jhana completely
i would put this in category
of faith follower
and dry insight
i do not see how this, is actually done.
By stream entry, do you mean the fruition?
Which sutta actually says that there is an attainment of stream entry without jhana?