Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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mikenz66
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:48 am

Ñāṇa wrote: Prior to the 19th century colonial interest in Pāḷi Buddhism the Visuddimagga was little more than a historic artifact relegated to library shelves -- rarely, if ever used.
Did that little band of English speakers really have that much influence in Burma for example? Perhaps so, but the English translations themselves wouldn't have any relevance to non-English-speakers fluent in Pali (which is a lot of people...).

Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:29 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: Prior to the 19th century colonial interest in Pāḷi Buddhism the Visuddimagga was little more than a historic artifact relegated to library shelves -- rarely, if ever used.
Did that little band of English speakers really have that much influence in Burma for example? Perhaps so, but the English translations themselves wouldn't have any relevance to non-English-speakers fluent in Pali (which is a lot of people...)
I'd love to see a firm - or even shaky - connexion between the English speakers and Ledi Sayadaw's interest in VM style Theravada.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Ben
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by Ben » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:38 am

tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: Prior to the 19th century colonial interest in Pāḷi Buddhism the Visuddimagga was little more than a historic artifact relegated to library shelves -- rarely, if ever used.
Did that little band of English speakers really have that much influence in Burma for example? Perhaps so, but the English translations themselves wouldn't have any relevance to non-English-speakers fluent in Pali (which is a lot of people...)
I'd love to see a firm - or even shaky - connexion between the English speakers and Ledi Sayadaw's interest in VM style Theravada.
I remember reading some letters between Rhys Davids and Ledi Sayadaw. If anything, it was the Sayadaw who seemed to influence Rhys Davids and not the other way around.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

Nyana
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by Nyana » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:54 am

:hug:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:51 am

Ben wrote:
I remember reading some letters between Rhys Davids and Ledi Sayadaw. If anything, it was the Sayadaw who seemed to influence Rhys Davids and not the other way around.
kind regards

Ben
Thanks, but that hardly qualifies as a basis for claiming a major shift in approach for Ledi Sayadaw in adopting the "sitting on the shelf" Visuddhimagga. So, it is not Ledi Sayadaw, but Ven. San-Kyaung Sayadaw that one is going to have to conntext to the English:
At that time, during the reign of King Min Don Min who ruled from 1853-1878, Mandalay was the royal capital of Burma and the most important center of learning in the country. He studied under several of the leading Sayadaws and learned lay scholars as well. He resided primarily in the Maha-Jotikarama Monastery and studied with Ven. San-Kyaung Sayadaw, a teacher who is famous in Burma for translating the Visuddhimagga Path of Purification into Burmese. . . . By 1911 his reputation both as a scholar and meditation master had grown to such an extent that the British government of India, which also ruled Burma, conferred on him the title of Aggamaha-pandita (foremost great scholar). He was also awarded a Doctorate of Literature from the University of Rangoon. During the years 1913-1917 he had a correspondence with Mrs. Rhys-Davids of the Pali Text Society in London, and translations of several of his discussions on points of Abhidhamma were published in the Journal of the Pali Text Society. http://www.vridhamma.org/Teachers-2.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And given that:
Since the fifteenth century Burma has been the international center of Abhidhamma studies, and therefore we find many commentaries written on it by Burmese scholars both in Pali and in Burmese. Commentaries on the Sangaha in Pali alone number nineteen, of which the following are the most important:

. . .

Abhidhammatthasangaha-Tika, also known as the Porana-Tika, "the Old Commentary." This is a very small tika written in Sri Lanka in the twelfth century by an elder named Acariya Navavimalabuddhi.
Abhidhammatthavibhavini-Tika, or in brief, the Vibhavini, written by Acariya Sumangalasami, pupil of the eminent Sri Lankan elder Sariputta Mahasami, also in the twelfth century. This tika quickly superceded the Old Commentary and is generally considered the most profound and reliable exegetical work on the Sangaha. In Burma this work is known as tika-gyaw, "the Famous Commentary." The author is greatly respected for his erudition and mastery of the Abhidhamma. He relies heavily on older authorities such as the Abhidhamma-Anutika and the Visuddhimagga-Mahatika (also known as the Paramatthamanjusa). Although Ledi Sayadaw (see below) criticized the Vibhavini extensively in his own commentary on the Sangaha, its popularity has not diminished but indeed has even increased, and several Burmese scholars have risen to defend it against Ledi Sayadaw's criticisms.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... himan.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We are talking about a heavy duty traditional scholarly tradition and there is no reason to assume that Visuddhimagga was not part of it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Ben
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by Ben » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:23 am

I agree.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

Nyana
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by Nyana » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:41 am

tiltbillings wrote: We are talking about a heavy duty traditional scholarly tradition and there is no reason to assume that Visuddhimagga was not part of it.
Sure. Nevertheless, I was referring to the re-invigoration and dissemination of the Pāḷi textual tradition beyond the Burmese scholar monks. This happened in the 19th century initially as a reaction to colonial interference, and continued well into the period where the first Europeans were showing interest in the Pāḷi texts. The Pāḷi texts -- including the Vism. -- were actively printed and disseminated throughout parts of SE Asia during this time.

And from a different angle the 19th century Thai Thammayut movement was in part informed by the King's interest in Western style textual criticism. He also re-invigorated interest in the Pāḷi Canon in Thailand which later made its way into Cambodia.

All the best,

Geoff

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tiltbillings
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:53 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: We are talking about a heavy duty traditional scholarly tradition and there is no reason to assume that Visuddhimagga was not part of it.
Sure. Nevertheless, I was referring to the re-invigoration and dissemination of the Pāḷi textual tradition beyond the Burmese scholar monks.
So? I am talking about the scholar monks such as Ledi Sayadaw or his teachers. It was not Western style scholarship and we are not talking about Protestant Buddhism of Sri Lanka. You seem to be working awfully hard to try to undercut the VM, when the VM and the Abhidhamma was what characteriozed the elite scholary class of monks well before the West's intrusions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Nyana
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by Nyana » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:So? I am talking about the scholar monks such as Ledi Sayadaw or his teachers.
So? Here's an idea: lighten up Bruce. Last I heard you openly admitted that you weren't much of a fan of the Vism.
tiltbillings wrote:You seem to be working awfully hard to try to undercut the VM....
Not likely.

All the best,

Geoff

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tiltbillings
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:15 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So? I am talking about the scholar monks such as Ledi Sayadaw or his teachers.
So? Here's an idea: lighten up Bruce. Last I heard you openly admitted that you weren't much of a fan of the Vism.
Non sequitur.
Geoff wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You seem to be working awfully hard to try to undercut the VM....
Not likely.
Looks that way.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Nyana
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by Nyana » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:25 am

tiltbillings wrote:Looks that way.
My opinions on the Vism. are quite irrelevant to the topic at hand. But for the record, one of my first introductions to Theravāda was the Vism. IMO every serious practitioner should read it.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:09 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Looks that way.
My opinions on the Vism. are quite irrelevant to the topic at hand.
The VM was mentioned passing in the quote by Kester. You are the one that ran with it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Nyana
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by Nyana » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:The VM was mentioned passing in the quote by Kester. You are the one that ran with it.
:oops:

Freawaru
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by Freawaru » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:42 am

Hi IanAnd,

thank you for the clarification :smile:

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by Modus.Ponens » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:57 pm

Why has this thread gone off topic?
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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