reflection wrote:I'm not saying don't use suttas, I'm just not a supporter of overusing them in debates about meditation.
The suttas are higher authority than you or me. That is why, IMHO, they are so important. Until a person reaches awakening, it is almost a given that s/he will often misinterpret things.
I see almost nobody here using some form of deduction from experience or logic.
Because these (experience & logic) could often be under the power of kilesas, and kilesas can twist them to their own liking. In Brahmajala sutta most wrong views come from thinking, and other wrong views come from deduction from experience.
Thinking one has attained something because of this while it is not so could stop progress or effort.
This is very correct statement. One needs to be brutally honest with oneself, and the best solution is to work harder no matter what amount of bliss arises.
If one is an Arahant, then one will not mind to work more. If one is not an Arahant, it will help him/her to continue on the path.
For example, the Buddha said nibbana can be seen here and now makes some people say we are all already enlightened..
I think that it means in this life.
In any case, if a person thinks that he is already awakened and cannot see it even when reading the suttas, then there isn't much one can do in the short term. We can only hope that s/he will have more wisdom arise and pick up the practice later on.
Obviously this is a misread the same may be said for "dumbed down jhanas". So I'd say: trust the suttas with care, because they are still subject to your own interpretation.
Or dumbed down meditation with insight portion taken out... Again the suttas are clear about that one overcomes rūpasaññānaṃ, paṭighasaññānaṃ, and nānattasaññānaṃ when one enters Base of Infinite Space (Ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ).
There is absolutely no way to claim that sight shuts down prior to 1st Jhāna. And diversity (nānattasaññānaṃ) is also overcomed in Ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ.
Sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ananto ākāsoti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#pts.410
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