Sylvester wrote:I'd be happy to discuss why you feel that my extension of the Salla Sutta's "kayika vedana" to those 6 vedanas arising from the 6 contacts at the salayatana is invalid.
Hi Sylvester,
Firstly, there are six types of feeling: feeling born of eye contact, feeling born of ear contact, feeling born of nose contact, feeling born of tongue contact,
feeling born of body contact,
feeling born of mind contact (cakkhusamphassajā vedanā, sotasamphassajā vedanā, ghānasamphassajā vedanā, jivhāsamphassajā vedanā,
kāyasamphassajā vedanā,
manosamphassajā vedanā) as mentioned in SN 22.56.
If we look at SN 48.38 we can see how this sixfold classification is relevant in regard to kāyasamphassajā vedanā and manosamphassajā vedanā:
- And what is the pleasure faculty? Any bodily pleasure, bodily comfort born of body contact to be experienced as pleasure and comfort. That is called the pleasure faculty.
And what is the pain faculty? Any bodily pain, bodily discomfort born of body contact to be experienced as pain and discomfort. That is called the pain faculty.
And what is the happiness faculty? Any mental pleasure, mental comfort born of mind contact to be experienced as pleasure and comfort. That is called the happiness faculty.
And what is the unhappiness faculty? Any mental pain, mental discomfort born of mind contact to be experienced as pain and discomfort. That is called the unhappiness faculty.
Katamañca, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ, kāyikaṃ sātaṃ, kāyasamphassajaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ.
Katamañca, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ dukkhaṃ , kāyikaṃ asātaṃ, kāyasamphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ.
Katamañca, bhikkhave, somanassindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ, cetasikaṃ sātaṃ, manosamphassajaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, somanassindriyaṃ.
Katamañca, bhikkhave, domanassindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ dukkhaṃ, cetasikaṃ asātaṃ, manosamphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, domanassindriyaṃ.
There is nothing mentioned in SN 36.6 Salla Sutta to indicate that the bodily feeling under discussion (i.e. kāyikañca vedanā) extends beyond kāyasamphassajā vedanā. The context the discourse is to highlight that when a noble disciple experiences a painful bodily feeling, etc., they don’t experience any mental distress because of that. Aversion doesn’t arise towards it. They remain detached. The point is that although bodily pain and sickness are unavoidable, there need not be any mental suffering because of it.
The following discourse where the Buddha visits a sick ward highlights how in this context a feeling of pain is dependent upon the body, and how the discernment of conditionality leads to the abandoning of the underlying tendency. SN 36.7 Paṭhamagelañña Sutta:
- As he is dwelling thus mindful & alert — heedful, ardent, & resolute — a feeling of pain arises in him. He discerns that 'A feeling of pain has arisen in me. It is dependent on a requisite condition, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on this body. Now, this body is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. Being dependent on a body that is inconstant, fabricated, & dependently co-arisen, how can this feeling of pain that has arisen be constant?' He remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the body & to the feeling of pain. He remains focused on dissolution... dispassion... cessation... relinquishment with regard to the body & to the feeling of pain. As he remains focused on inconstancy... dissolution... dispassion... cessation... relinquishment with regard to the body & to the feeling of pain, he abandons any resistance-obsession with regard to the body & the feeling of pain.
Tassa ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno evaṃ satassa sampajānassa appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato uppajjati dukkhā vedanā. So evaṃ pajānāti – ‘uppannā kho myāyaṃ dukkhā vedanā. Sā ca kho paṭicca, no appaṭicca. Kiṃ paṭicca? Imameva kāyaṃ paṭicca. Ayaṃ kho pana kāyo anicco saṅkhato paṭiccasamuppanno. Aniccaṃ kho pana saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ kāyaṃ paṭicca uppannā dukkhā vedanā kuto niccā bhavissatī’ti! So kāye ca dukkhāya vedanāya aniccānupassī viharati, vayānupassī viharati, virāgānupassī viharati, nirodhānupassī viharati, paṭinissaggānupassī viharati. Tassa kāye ca dukkhāya ca vedanāya aniccānupassino viharato…pe… paṭinissaggānupassino viharato, yo kāye ca dukkhāya ca vedanāya paṭighānusayo, so pahīyati.
Sylvester wrote:I'm very baffled by your suggestion that the recollection of acquisitions in MN 137 is -
"Actually that is the basis for cakkhusamphassa vedanā, not kāyasamphassa vedanā."
Is it your view then that memories (being dhammas) can form the triad of phassa with eye and eye-consciousness?
- The joy that arises when one regards as an acquisition the acquisition of forms cognizable by the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, connected with worldly baits....
The eye series: dependent on the eye and forms there arises eye consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling (i.e. cakkhusamphassajā vedanā). From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming....
The sukha which arises in the course of this series is vedanā born of cakkhusamphassa. The subsequent somanassa which arises in the course of this series is vedanā born of manosamphassa.
- The joy that arises when one regards as an acquisition the acquisition of phenomena cognizable by the mind — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, connected with worldly baits....
The mind series: dependent on the mind and phenomena there arises mental consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling (i.e. manosamphassajā vedanā). From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming....
The sukha which arises in the course of this series is vedanā born of manosamphassa. The subsequent somanassa which arises is also vedanā born of manosamphassa.
- or when one recalls the previous acquisition of such forms after they have passed, ceased, & changed....
The mind series: dependent on the mind and phenomena there arises mental consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling (i.e. manosamphassajā vedanā). From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming....
Again, the sukha which arises in the course of this series is vedanā born of manosamphassa. The subsequent somanassa which arises is also vedanā born of manosamphassa.
Sylvester wrote:I may well have missed the soteriological message of MN 137, but how does that nullify my reductio ad absurdum objection to your argument that manosamphassa gives rise to purely cetasika vedana?
The point of MN 137 Saḷāyatanavibhaṅga Sutta is to illustrate the gradual stepwise transcendence of somanassa, domanassa, and upekkhā. The end result of this stepwise transcendence is where the liberated mind has abandoned and transcended all somanassa, domanassa, and upekkhā through non-fashioning (atammayata).
Cetasika vedanā (sukha, dukkha, or adukkhamasukha)
is the vedanā simpliciter born of manosamphassa. All other affective defilements arising from the mind series proliferate from this. There’s no need to bring SN 36.6 into the analysis and assert that the primary vedanā born of manosamphassa is a newly created category of “kāyika vedanā” pertaining to the six āyatana-s when this isn’t supported by the specific use of kāyika and cetasika in the analysis of SN 48.38 nor the six types of feeling stated in SN 22.56, etc.
Sylvester wrote:If you insist the 1st vedana that ensues from mind-contact based on recollection of previous acquisition to be cetasika vedana, it directly violates the Salla Sutta's injunction against Ariyans experiencing cetasika vedana (based on the kamagunas) or the anusayas.
Again, MN 137 illustrates the gradual stepwise transcendence of somanassa, domanassa, and upekkhā. A noble disciple abandons and transcends household somanassa in the process.
Sylvester wrote:By your argument, any form of vedana born of manosamphassa must be cetasika vedana would imply that arahants can be touched by a cetasika vedana and will inexorably generate the corresponding anusayas.
The liberated mind has abandoned all deluded affective and cognitive defilements with regard to both kāyika and cetasika vedanā. In terms of dependent arising, it isn’t feeling that’s the problem, it’s craving, which is rooted in ignorance.
For example, MN 38 Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Sutta:
- On touching a tangible with the body... cognizing a mind-object with the mind, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing (piyarūpe dhamme na sārajjati); he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing (appiyarūpe dhamme na byāpajjati). He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favoring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant, painful, or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him.
So kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā…pe… manasā dhammaṃ viññāya piyarūpe dhamme na sārajjati, appiyarūpe dhamme na byāpajjati, upaṭṭhitakāyasati ca viharati appamāṇacetaso, tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti – yatthassa te pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti. So evaṃ anurodhavirodhavippahīno yaṃ kiñci vedanaṃ vedeti, sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā, so taṃ vedanaṃ nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati. Tassa taṃ vedanaṃ anabhinandato anabhivadato anajjhosāya tiṭṭhato yā vedanāsu nandī sā nirujjhati.
MN 148 Chachakka Sutta:
- Dependent on the body & tactile sensations.... Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat one's breast or become distraught, then one's resistance obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, & escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession doesn't get obsessed. That a person — through abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing is possible.
Kāyañca, bhikkhave, paṭicca phoṭṭhabbe ca uppajjati kāyaviññāṇaṃ…pe…. Manañca, bhikkhave, paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso, phassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā. So sukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati. Tassa rāgānusayo nānuseti. Dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno na socati na kilamati na paridevati na urattāḷiṃ kandati na sammohaṃ āpajjati. Tassa paṭighānusayo nānuseti. Adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno tassā vedanāya samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti. Tassa avijjānusayo nānuseti. So vata, bhikkhave, sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayaṃ pahāya dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayaṃ paṭivinodetvā adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayaṃ samūhanitvā avijjaṃ pahāya vijjaṃ uppādetvā diṭṭheva dhamme dukkhassantakaro bhavissatīti – ṭhānametaṃ vijjati.
All the best,
Geoff