The Great Jhana Debate

[Freawaru]

Hi Sylvester,

thank you for your help

It's going to be difficult to start the discussion, even with that concession. We have quite a gap to bridge in terms of finding some common ground on the characteristics of a Jhana.

Yes. When I started to look into Theravada I tried to get exact definitions of terms. It prooved impossible because different translators and teachers would use different translations into english (or german at that) and tried to name different experiences and factors of experience by them.

Take for example "samadhi". In yoga the term is translated as "collection". "Concentration" - the term translated as samadhi in Theravada - is "dharana" in yoga, literally "holding fast". In yoga samadhi/collection denotes a state with different possible objects, different activities, I think "flow" is what we use today:

Flow is the mental state of operation in which a person in an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is why I compare it to how a horse is collected. Same name even. Collection, both in yoga (aka samadhi) and horses refers to a specific state the horse or mind can be in. What horse or mind DO during collection can vary widely. But in Theravada samadhi is just translated as concentration. Concentration is an activity, not a state. It is what is done, to hold something fast, not the resulting state of flow.

As Theravada seems to already use samadhi as the deed, rather than the state, thus jhana seemed the appropriate translation of "collection/flow".

To understand flow, collection, one has to experience it. In my experience, flow itself is not lucid. Meaning, there is no sati, no awareness of what happens while it happens. Only afterwards one realises one has been in flow. For becoming lucid during flow other processes need to awaken: sati and uppekha (looking on).

In yoga today the term "samadhi" seeems to always refer to a lucid state, a state with sati, while in Theravada it has several meanings http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#ch1.3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) . But - just for the sake of discussion - what if neither was the orignal definition, or the definition during the time of the Buddha? What if the original definition was "collection", aka flow? In this case "samadhi + sati + uppekha might be the definition of a lucid flow-state called jhana. Would this make sense in the suttas?

Personally, I believe that the samadhi from which the iddhis are accessed is probably that state denoted by the Commentaries as "upacara samadhi".

In my experience the iddhis do require a specific state of concentration but not absorption with it nor necessarily sati. There had not always been awareness when they happened but their appearance in general was more often when I would practice jhana. Also, all the traditions, Theravada, Mahayana, Hinduism, etc, agree that practice of a specific state of concentration leads to the arising of iddhis. So there is a connection.

Clearly, the Jhanas are not the only states that are free from the Hindrances, given the many "sudden stream entry" suttas using the standard pericope of the Buddha teaching the 4 Noble Truths when the listener was "free from the Hindrances".

I didn't know that.

Have you considered the Iddhipadasamyutta of the SN as perhaps containing the answer to your query? It seems to me that all the 4 iddhipada-s are based on certain samadhi-s with specific qualities.

Yes, but it seems just to describe that it is so, not the mechanism. Sort of "if the monk did that, this will happen." Without further information of the "that" in the "did that" - and there are after all several interpretations - it is not much of a help.

All I can be sure of is that if I practice the way I used to there is an increase of experiencing the iddhis. And not always due to my intent or even lucidity. This is why I search for a way to develop sati during their appearance.

I am of the view that the iddhipadas samadhi are not Jhana, especially when you consider the 1st and 4th iddhipada. The 1st samadhi contains "volitional formations of striving" (padhānasaṅkhārasamannāgataṃ), whereas DN 34 and the Samadhi Sutta (in AN 5s) specifically mention that the Jhanas are "na sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagatoti" (without being controlled by volition).

There is control during jhana, has to be, just as there is control during samadhi. But the authority that keeps control can differ. Using the horse-rider analogy, during samadhi (my speculative defintion above aka flow) the horse is in control, but during jhana it is the rider (a transcendental function based on sati). Samadhi is like a horse collecting itself (for fight or impressing another horse). Samadhi with sati is like a rider sitting on a horse that collects itself for it's own reasons - the rider has no control. Jhana is like a collected horse controled by the rider due to the "throughness" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throughness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). The question is: what exactly is "throughness" in terms of Dhamma? Or to put it differently: what is the transcendental authority (in terms of a function) in control of the state of jhana when it is not volition?

This is further reinforced by the 4th iddhipada which is based on investigation (vimaṃsa). That is the function of the Enlightenment Factor of Dhammavicaya; see this post - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360&p=121106&hilit=vicarati#p121106

These are not states that can occur in a Jhana.

Let me get this straight: you think that when Gautama moved through the levels of jhana he "sidesteped" fourth jhana and entered another samadhi to access the "recall all my previous lives iddhi"?

Sorry if I cannot be of much help.

You provided me with a lot of new possibilites and links to search for a many-years quest. Thank you for that

[daverupa]

What if the original definition was "collection", aka flow? In this case "samadhi + sati + uppekha might be the definition of a lucid flow-state called jhana. Would this make sense in the suttas?

Nope. Jhanas aren't "flow states" because flow states can involve focus on sensual pleasure. Jhana is never like that.

[Sylvester]

In my experience the iddhis do require a specific state of concentration but not absorption with it nor necessarily sati. There had not always been awareness when they happened but their appearance in general was more often when I would practice jhana. Also, all the traditions, Theravada, Mahayana, Hinduism, etc, agree that practice of a specific state of concentration leads to the arising of iddhis. So there is a connection.

Hi Freawaru

While I'm defnitely not au fait with what each of these other traditions say about the relationship between samadhi and the iddhis, DN 1 gives an interesting window into the Early Buddhist perspective of non-Buddhist iddhi-s.

The model coincides to some degree with the iddhipada-s, but looks different at the same time. Taking Walshe's translation -

Here, monks, a certain ascetic or Brahmin has by means of effort, exertion, application, earnestness and right attention attained to such a state of mental concentration that he thereby recalls past existences - one birth, two births ...

Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā ātappamanvāya padhānamanvāya anuyogamanvāya appamādamanvāya sammāmanasikāramanvāya tathārūpaṃ cetosamādhiṃ phusati, yathāsamāhite citte ( ) anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarati. Seyyathidaṃ— ekampi jātiṃ dvepi jātiyo ...

It's highly unlikely, IMHO, that cetosamādhi is the text refers to the Jhanas. In the subsequent passages on wrong views No. 59 to 62, the 4 Jhana-s are mentioned explicitly by name. It just looks odd that the Jhana-s are mentioned there, but not in relation to the earlier wrong views.

Let me get this straight: you think that when Gautama moved through the levels of jhana he "sidesteped" fourth jhana and entered another samadhi to access the "recall all my previous lives iddhi"?

I don't think one can decide to move from one Jhana to the next, not when one is abiding in a Jhana. I think suttas that best exemplifies how one moves from one Jhana to another is probably the Pabbateyya Gavi Sutta, AN 9.35. The decision to move from 1st Jhana to 2nd Jhana appears to be made outside of Jhana, which probably explains the Buddha's deathbed attainments - He leaves an attainment before moving on to the next.

[Freawaru]

H Daverupa,

What if the original definition was "collection", aka flow? In this case "samadhi + sati + uppekha might be the definition of a lucid flow-state called jhana. Would this make sense in the suttas?

Nope. Jhanas aren't "flow states" because flow states can involve focus on sensual pleasure. Jhana is never like that.

As far as I know, fourth jhana is defined by the presence of the perfected sati and uppekha. I think we all agree on what sati is, and there is no reason to assume that it can not be there during a state of Flow. So what about uppekha? What is, in you definition, uppekha, and why can't it be there during Flow?

[Freawaru]

Hi Sylvester

While I'm defnitely not au fait with what each of these other traditions say about the relationship between samadhi and the iddhis, DN 1 gives an interesting window into the Early Buddhist perspective of non-Buddhist iddhi-s.

The model coincides to some degree with the iddhipada-s, but looks different at the same time. Taking Walshe's translation -

Here, monks, a certain ascetic or Brahmin has by means of effort, exertion, application, earnestness and right attention attained to such a state of mental concentration that he thereby recalls past existences - one birth, two births ...

Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā ātappamanvāya padhānamanvāya anuyogamanvāya appamādamanvāya sammāmanasikāramanvāya tathārūpaṃ cetosamādhiṃ phusati, yathāsamāhite citte ( ) anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarati. Seyyathidaṃ— ekampi jātiṃ dvepi jātiyo ...

It's highly unlikely, IMHO, that cetosamādhi is the text refers to the Jhanas. In the subsequent passages on wrong views No. 59 to 62, the 4 Jhana-s are mentioned explicitly by name. It just looks odd that the Jhana-s are mentioned there, but not in relation to the earlier wrong views.

But samadhi alone is not jhana. Samadhi might not include sati and uppekha. The iddhi of recalling one's past lives does not require jhana, even some people from New Age can do that, but they don't access it with the presence of sati and uppekha.

I don't think one can decide to move from one Jhana to the next, not when one is abiding in a Jhana. I think suttas that best exemplifies how one moves from one Jhana to another is probably the Pabbateyya Gavi Sutta, AN 9.35. The decision to move from 1st Jhana to 2nd Jhana appears to be made outside of Jhana, which probably explains the Buddha's deathbed attainments - He leaves an attainment before moving on to the next.

It is possible to enter fourth jhana directly, without going through the other three first (in fact Buddhaghosa describes this practice in the Visuddhimagga), so I think it possible the Buddha just referred to this practice in the Pabbateyya Gavi Sutta. During jhana there is sati and uppekha, what more does one need to leave the state at will or enter another from here?

[daverupa]

H Daverupa,

What if the original definition was "collection", aka flow? In this case "samadhi + sati + uppekha might be the definition of a lucid flow-state called jhana. Would this make sense in the suttas?

Nope. Jhanas aren't "flow states" because flow states can involve focus on sensual pleasure. Jhana is never like that.

As far as I know, fourth jhana is defined by the presence of the perfected sati and uppekha. I think we all agree on what sati is, and there is no reason to assume that it can not be there during a state of Flow. So what about uppekha? What is, in you definition, uppekha, and why can't it be there during Flow?

You don't there from here; flow states aren't secluded from sensuality or secluded from unwholesome states, whereas jhana necessarily is so secluded. Also, one can practice sati and uppekha without being in jhana, so it is unsurprising they can be present in Flow states. In fact, flow states probably have a strong correlation to sampajañña, but they are definitely not jhana.

[Alex123]

Hello Sylverster,

Please explain to me what kind of rupa is transcended between 4th Jhana to reach base of infinite space?

I have provided sutta quotes to justify straitforward reading of the suttas and what they mean by rūpa.


Sylvester: "DN 9 specifically says that in 1st Jhana, kāmasaññā ceases"

And rūpasaññā ceases after 4th Jhāna, the Base of infinite space.

So there is the difference between "kāma" and "rūpa".

kāma means = pleasure; lust; enjoyment; an object of sexual enjoyment.
Of course one has to secluded from these things for optimal meditation. Even an Arahant while 5 senses are functional, no longer has kāma.

[rowyourboat]

I think Freewaru is advocating jhana but gives it a different interpretation from that of the suttas. Going from one jhana to the other is no 'flow', more like a 'bump'. These are different states of consciousness, much like going from a fluid medium (say, the sea) into air (shooting out from the water). There is that much of a difference between jhana.

Also it is possible to have mastery over jhana, so that it is possible to be in control over jhana (unlike the 'cow who gets lost in the mountains, going from one higher pasture to the next, being enticed').
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta

Matheesha

[Sylvester]

Hello Sylverster,

Please explain to me what kind of rupa is transcended between 4th Jhana to reach base of infinite space?

I have provided sutta quotes to justify straitforward reading of the suttas and what they mean by rūpa.


Sylvester: "DN 9 specifically says that in 1st Jhana, kāmasaññā ceases"

And rūpasaññā ceases after 4th Jhāna, the Base of infinite space.

So there is the difference between "kāma" and "rūpa".

kāma means = pleasure; lust; enjoyment; an object of sexual enjoyment.
Of course one has to secluded from these things for optimal meditation. Even an Arahant while 5 senses are functional, no longer has kāma.

I seriously doubt if we are going to be able to gap this, if you keep insisting on discussing "kāma" when the Jhana pericope addresses "kāmā" instead. I don't see why you keep confusing the 2...

And going by your example of the Arahant bereft of kāma, does this mean that the Arahant satisfies the 2 seclusion formula 24/7 and thereby abides constantly in pitisukha born of seclusion?

No, I do not agree that one has to be secluded from pleasure for optimal meditation. The Jhana-s are described to be sambodhi sukha, besides the usual pitisukha predicate.

As for kāma being an "object of sexual enjoyment", where is that to be found in the 4 Nikayas pls?

As for "rupa", how about the plain old canonical definition of the 4 dhatus and the rupa derived therefrom? Is there anything inherent in this definition that entails phassa with sights, smells, sounds, tastes and tactility? You might like to consider sutta #5 in the Brahma Samyutta, where the Buddha and His disciples maintained some sort of rupa based on the fire dhatu when visiting an unnamed Brahma in 'his' world. Apparently, the Buddha's "fire element" rupa was perceptible to the Brahma as a radiance; cakkhuvinneya or manovinneya, it does not say.

[Freawaru]

Hi Matheesha,

I think Freewaru is advocating jhana but gives it a different interpretation from that of the suttas. Going from one jhana to the other is no 'flow', more like a 'bump'. These are different states of consciousness, much like going from a fluid medium (say, the sea) into air (shooting out from the water). There is that much of a difference between jhana.

No, I do agree with you. To enter jhana or to change from one to another is more like a "bump". It is as if something clicks into place or locks home. Warp one, two, three,...

I just used the term "flow" because it has a psychological definition.

Flow is the mental state of operation in which a person in an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity. Proposed by Mihály Csíkszentmihályi, the positive psychology concept has been widely referenced across a variety of fields.[1]

According to Csíkszentmihályi, flow is completely focused motivation. It is a single-minded immersion and represents perhaps the ultimate in harnessing the emotions in the service of performing and learning. In flow, the emotions are not just contained and channeled, but positive, energized, and aligned with the task at hand. To be caught in the ennui of depression or the agitation of anxiety is to be barred from flow. The hallmark of flow is a feeling of spontaneous joy, even rapture, while performing a task[2] although flow is also described (below) as a deep focus on nothing but the activity - not even oneself or one's emotions.

Colloquial terms for this or similar mental states include: to be on the ball, in the moment, present, in the zone, wired in, in the groove, or keeping your head in the game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have also heard "being in the tunnel" for example.

Experience wise there is no impression of anything flowing in the infinite space jhana.

However, it seems to me that "flow" does not always include sati and uppekha. One is not always aware that one is in flow while it happens.

Csíkszentmihályi identifies the following ten factors as accompanying an experience of flow [3][4]

1. Clear goals (expectations and rules are discernible and goals are attainable and align appropriately with one's skill set and abilities). Moreover, the challenge level and skill level should both be high.[5]
2. Concentrating, a high degree of concentration on a limited field of attention (a person engaged in the activity will have the opportunity to focus and to delve deeply into it).
3. A loss of the feeling of self-consciousness, the merging of action and awareness.
4. Distorted sense of time, one's subjective experience of time is altered.
5. Direct and immediate feedback (successes and failures in the course of the activity are apparent, so that behavior can be adjusted as needed).
6. Balance between ability level and challenge (the activity is neither too easy nor too difficult).
7. A sense of personal control over the situation or activity.
8. The activity is intrinsically rewarding, so there is an effortlessness of action.
9. A lack of awareness of bodily needs (to the extent that one can reach a point of great hunger or fatigue without realizing it)
10. Absorption into the activity, narrowing of the focus of awareness down to the activity itself, action awareness merging.

Not all are needed for flow to be experienced.

There are three conditions that are necessary to achieve the flow state:

1. One must be involved in an activity with a clear set of goals. This adds direction and structure to the task.[9]
2. One must have a good balance between the perceived challenges of the task at hand and his or her own perceived skills. One must have confidence that he or she is capable to do the task at hand.[9]
3. The task at hand must have clear and immediate feedback. This helps the person negotiate any changing demands and allows him or her to adjust his or her performance to maintain the flow state.[9]

As you can see this basically describes how to enter jhana. Concentration on a task - such as to focus on one's nostrils. One has to be sure one can keep this focus before it will happen. The third point will induce sati if stability of focus on a simple object (such as the nostrils) is the goal.

I think it is useful to have a psychological definition related to jhana as jhana is not clearly defined in the suttas and thus used differently by different teachers. The point is that flow has most of the factors jhana is recommended for. Except sometimes sati and uppekha. Sati seems sometimes to be included into the definition, but I have not yet read anything remotely similar to uppekha.

[Freawaru]

Hi Daverupa,

You don't there from here; flow states aren't secluded from sensuality or secluded from unwholesome states,

But they are!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, one can practice sati and uppekha without being in jhana,

How does on practice uppekha without jhana?

In fact, flow states probably have a strong correlation to sampajañña, but they are definitely not jhana.

I do not understand this. Could you please give your definition of sampajanna and why you think it correlates to flow?

[Alex123]

As for "rupa", how about the plain old canonical definition of the 4 dhatus and the rupa derived therefrom? Is there anything inherent in this definition that entails phassa with sights, smells, sounds, tastes and tactility? You might like to consider sutta #5 in the Brahma Samyutta, where the Buddha and His disciples maintained some sort of rupa based on the fire dhatu when visiting an unnamed Brahma in 'his' world. Apparently, the Buddha's "fire element" rupa was perceptible to the Brahma as a radiance; cakkhuvinneya or manovinneya, it does not say.

(underline is mine)

"rupa based on the fire dhatu" and "radiance" are visible , they have shape and/or color. So this quote again reinforces that Rūpa is visible. Radiance as rūpa, can only be seen.


In many suttas it lists six types of sañña: Rūpasaññā, Saddasaññā, Gandhasaññā, Rasasaññā, Phoṭṭhabbasaññā, Dhammasaññā.

Rūpa has these major contexts in the suttas:
1) As material form derived from the four great elements ex: rūpa in nāmarūpa

Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality


"And why do you call it 'form'?(rūpanti)[1] Because it is afflicted,[2] thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form.

If rūpa is some sort of mental only object with no physical base that can be seen, then how can it ever experience "touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles." It is clearly a 3-dimensional object that can be seen.


2) As visual object for the cakkhu-āyatana

Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Rūpa is a visual object, not mental which is dhamma
Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ

Purely mental object is dhamma, not Rūpa.
Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect.
Manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ


3) As a plane of existence, Rūpa-Loka
The Brahmas which live there can see and hear. So there IS visual content in all Rūpa-Loka accessible to the Aryans.




Ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa rūpasaññā niruddhā hoti. Also dozens of suttas state that one overcomes rūpasaññānaṃ, paṭighasaññānaṃ, and nānattasaññānaṃ when one enters Base of Infinite Space (Ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ). So perception of visual form (rūpasaññā) ceases ONLY in aruppa planes, not in Jhāna.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[daverupa]

Hi Daverupa,

You don't there from here; flow states aren't secluded from sensuality or secluded from unwholesome states,

But they are!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So playing video games and competitive sports and making paintings, all of which are known flow-inducing candidates - you'd say jhana could be practiced thusly? That link offers a method for using internet surfing to enter a flow state - might this replace anapanasati, do you think?

How does on practice uppekha without jhana?

It's one of the 40 meditation topics; metta, karuna, & mudita form the other three of the four immeasurables, and just as mettabhavana, so too upekkhabhavana.

Could you please give your definition of sampajanna and why you think it correlates to flow?

It's awareness, clear comprehension - what is sometimes incorrectly referred to as "mindfulness" in pulp self-help. It seems maybe flow is a state too focused to really qualify as sampajanna, but since the flow state focus is quixotic and/or sensual, I guess "flow state" doesn't really correlate perfectly with any Pali term. So it isn't really pertinent to practice at all, in the end.

[rowyourboat]

This 'flow' state sounds like the one below:

"It wasn't the case, brahman, that the Blessed One praised mental absorption of every sort, nor did he criticize mental absorption of every sort. And what sort of mental absorption did he not praise? There is the case where a certain person dwells with his awareness overcome by sensual passion, seized with sensual passion. He does not discern the escape, as it actually is present, from sensual passion once it has arisen. Making that sensual passion the focal point, he absorbs himself with it, besorbs, resorbs, & supersorbs himself with it.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#concen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

Matheesha

[Freawaru]

Hi Matheesha,

This 'flow' state sounds like the one below:

"It wasn't the case, brahman, that the Blessed One praised mental absorption of every sort, nor did he criticize mental absorption of every sort. And what sort of mental absorption did he not praise? There is the case where a certain person dwells with his awareness overcome by sensual passion, seized with sensual passion. He does not discern the escape, as it actually is present, from sensual passion once it has arisen. Making that sensual passion the focal point, he absorbs himself with it, besorbs, resorbs, & supersorbs himself with it.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#concen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

Matheesha

Exactly!


"...dwells with his awareness overcome by sensual passion, seized with sensual passion" indicates a lack of sati and surely no upekkha. I stick to it: jhana is "flow + sati + upekkha".

What do you think is meant by "besorbs, resorbs, & supersorbs" as contrasted to absorb?