The Great Jhana Debate

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by mikenz66 »

samseva wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:00 am I think the intention with considering a style of jhāna as "Sutta jhāna" is wanting to know that what one is practicing is what the Buddha authentically taught. ...
No one really knows what the Buddha taught. All we have from close to his time are the suttas, which give no detailed methods of how to enter jhana. Modern teachers give much more comprehensive instructions (as does the Visuddhimagga, of course). What they teach is techniques that they have developed, they don't just "teach the suttas". Clearly they all genuinely believe that the techniques are based on suttas, but they are also influenced by what they learned from their teachers, and their own experience. Quite rightly, in my opinion. It seems clear from the suttas that the Buddha and others gave much more detailed instructions than those preserved in the suttas. Just read the start of MN 118: https://suttacentral.net/en/mn118. The Buddha's discourse is to monks who have had several months of intensive instruction.

[In fact, I have heard some teachers theorise that the suttas are deliberately vague, so that teachers can adapt techniques to suit their students. If they were too specific teachers would have much less scope to personalise their instructions.]

Now, Ajahn Brahm and others teach a deep VM-style jhana, which one needs to emerge from to do insight. He, and others, claim that this is what is described in the suttas. If teachers like him are correct then the VM jhana is authentically what the Buddha taught and the lighter "sutta jhana" style, where one can do insight within the jhana is not authentically what the Buddha taught.

On the other hand, as I said above, perhaps they are all correct, and the two different styles are both effective.

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samseva
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by samseva »

Just with common sense, I don't think the Buddha practiced and taught jhāna similarly to access concentration/jhāna-lite. If you compare it to the way jhāna is described in the Suttas, there are barely any similarities. There are different instances where the Buddha is dwelling/rejoicing in deep absorption, such as during the night (I don't have one of those passages on hand, though), and he eloquently describes jhāna as being intensely satisfying—and all the many similes of absorption as well—that the Buddha would describe jhāna-lite in such a way would make no sense.

It would also make no sense that monks who lived in the forest and did very little else other than meditate, chant, discuss and so on, would be taught absorption being similar to jhāna-lite. Surely, and especially the many hundreds who were actual Arahants, a good portion could actually reach the 1st absorption. And with the way the formless attainments are described in the Suttas... it just doesn't add up.
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samseva
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by samseva »

mikenz66 wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:52 am [...]
But like I said earlier, I have no issues with jhāna-lite or access concentration. It's just that classifying it as "Sutta-style jhāna" and then classifying deeper jhāna as "Visuddhimagga-style jhāna", is distasteful and honestly makes no sense.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by mikenz66 »

samseva wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:59 am
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:52 am [...]
But like I said earlier, I have no issues with jhāna-lite or access concentration. It's just that classifying it as "Sutta-style jhāna" and then classifying deeper jhāna as "Visuddhimagga-style jhāna", is distasteful and honestly makes no sense.
Umm, that's exactly the point I was making. Various teachers teach "light" and "deep" jhana. The latter is what is described in the VM, and by a number of modern teachers who you seem to agree with:
samseva wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:55 am Just with common sense, I don't think the Buddha practiced and taught jhāna similarly to access concentration/jhāna-lite.
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samseva
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by samseva »

mikenz66 wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:41 pm [...]
Yes, but there is one point which, like you mentioned regarding how you didn't understand how I didn't get that there are different teachers with different interpretations (which I do), on my side, I don't feel like you understand my point about Leigh's approach.

For perspective, I completely understand and think it is fine that different teachers have different interpretations and practice a specific type of jhāna. I am also not debating the usefulness of jhāna-lite. What I am pointing to is the approach of claiming that "I [in this case, Leigh] have the authentic teachings and everyone else is and was wrong all along." Such claims without solid proof are empty, but still...

Anyway, I plan on looking into the Suttas and material (as well as his latest book, which I was planning on reading) to see on what Leigh bases his opinion that jhāna-lite is the authentic absorptions that the Buddha taught. I'll see where this leads me.

Cheers.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Hmm, OK, looks like I wasn't understanding your posts very clearly!

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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by SunWuKong »

I am looking at it like this: what is being called samatha, vipassana, come from the same collection of verses. Which don't say to practice them separately. I don't see the suttas as being vague. They say that do this, and this happens. What people find disconcerting is that they expect to see a panoramic show while they are sitting. The panoramic show doesn't happen there. What happens during sitting is subtle, sublime. Only when the subtle and sublime coexist with the round of daily activities, when jhana-specific experiences pervade the 24 hour daily standard waking state activities, is it going to seem maybe panoramic. (example) Sukkha, blissful pleasure, is not hard to get while sitting. It's to be encouraged. But when sukkha happens while you are grocery shopping is powerful and compelling. And its inevitable. The idea is that every step we take on the path, in reality, IS the Path. :alien:
Swami Bananananda
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Swami Bananananda »

Jhanas are a fun recreational activity. It’s cheaper and healthier than a drug addiction.
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confusedlayman
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by confusedlayman »

Modus.Ponens wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:11 pm Hello

In this forum I've seen many times a discussion about meditation that involves jhana, and usualy there's a confusion between the members because they are talking about different notions of jhana. I think it would be good to clarify this subject and discuss it in depth.

There are two types of jhana being talked about: the sutta jhanas and the visuddhimagga jhanas. An introduction to the subject can be found here:

http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the next post I'll post an essay by a former member of e-sangha nicknamed emptyuniverse. It presents very good (and definitive in my opinion) arguments in favor of the sutta jhana defenition. I've yet to see a convincing argument for the visuddhimagga jhanas.

Metta
Ajhan lee method works for anyone?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
coconut
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:01 am
214. When he does so in this way, the sign59 soon appears to him. But it is not the same for all; on the contrary, some say that when it appears it does so to certain people producing a light touch like cotton or silk-cotton or a draught...

Similarly this single meditation subject appears differently because of difference in perception.60 It is born of perception, its source is perception, it is produced by perception. Therefore it should be understood that when it appears differently it is because of difference in perception.
Visuddhimagga
That's just a game of broken telephone, as the Vissuddhimagga copied vimuttimagga and patisambhidhamagga.

The jhana factors themselves are the nimittas that matter.
I am sure many a meditator has wondered why the Buddha had failed to mention the critical information of the "sign" and "counter-sign" in breath meditation, which the Visuddhimagga has deemed so critical to success in jhanic practice. I hope this essay has shown that the Buddha's description of the practise of breath meditation contains all necessary and sufficient information for success.

I would add that the only sign of jhana which is reliable, and which applies in all cases, is the description of the jhana factors given by the Buddha Himself, whether the meditation object is visual or tactile. I would further hope that the meditator realizes that the progressive clarity and refinements of his or her perception of the object of meditation are simply the "side-effects" of clarity and illumination of the still and focused mind.
I recommend reading the entire article https://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/nimitta.html


Also in my opinion, light isn't a nimitta of jhana, but of abhinna.
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by coconut »

Continuing from my post, it's quite obvious that the jhana factors are the nimittas and not light.

- Samathanimitta = passaddhi
- Abyagganimitta = samadhinimitta = ekaggata

Also the suttas show that light is a nimitta of abhinna, not jhanas. As "light and forms" arise together, since the Buddha talks about the first time he saw devas he was learning how to balance light and forms.

So light is something that can arise in 3rd or 4th jhana.
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

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coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:01 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:01 am
214. When he does so in this way, the sign59 soon appears to him. But it is not the same for all; on the contrary, some say that when it appears it does so to certain people producing a light touch like cotton or silk-cotton or a draught...

Similarly this single meditation subject appears differently because of difference in perception.60 It is born of perception, its source is perception, it is produced by perception. Therefore it should be understood that when it appears differently it is because of difference in perception.
Visuddhimagga
That's just a game of broken telephone, as the Vissuddhimagga copied vimuttimagga and patisambhidhamagga.

The jhana factors themselves are the nimittas that matter.
I am sure many a meditator has wondered why the Buddha had failed to mention the critical information of the "sign" and "counter-sign" in breath meditation, which the Visuddhimagga has deemed so critical to success in jhanic practice. I hope this essay has shown that the Buddha's description of the practise of breath meditation contains all necessary and sufficient information for success.

I would add that the only sign of jhana which is reliable, and which applies in all cases, is the description of the jhana factors given by the Buddha Himself, whether the meditation object is visual or tactile. I would further hope that the meditator realizes that the progressive clarity and refinements of his or her perception of the object of meditation are simply the "side-effects" of clarity and illumination of the still and focused mind.
I recommend reading the entire article https://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/nimitta.html


Also in my opinion, light isn't a nimitta of jhana, but of abhinna.
Jhana is absorption of the mind into one object, so it is of singular perception. It makes sense for the nimitta to then be singular, rather than the multiple factors of Jhana.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:13 am Continuing from my post, it's quite obvious that the jhana factors are the nimittas and not light.

- Samathanimitta = passaddhi
- Abyagganimitta = samadhinimitta = ekaggata

Also the suttas show that light is a nimitta of abhinna, not jhanas. As "light and forms" arise together, since the Buddha talks about the first time he saw devas he was learning how to balance light and forms.

So light is something that can arise in 3rd or 4th jhana.
Interestingly that means you don’t need the 4th Jhana for the psychic powers.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:01 am
I recommend reading the entire article https://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/nimitta.html
I have. I even quoted the article in this thread. You must have missed it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
coconut
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:26 am Jhana is absorption of the mind into one object, so it is of singular perception. It makes sense for the nimitta to then be singular, rather than the multiple factors of Jhana.

Nope, MN 111 shows you can be aware of several things while in jhana, it's not that you're only aware of one thing. Many things arise and cease while in jhanas.
Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, he entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. And he distinguished the phenomena in the first absorption one by one: placing and keeping and rapture and bliss and unification of mind; contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention. He knew those phenomena as they arose, as they remained, and as they went away. He understood: ‘So it seems that these phenomena, not having been, come to be; and having come to be, they flit away.’ And he meditated without attraction or repulsion for those phenomena; independent, untied, liberated, detached, his mind free of limits. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond.’ And by repeated practice he knew for sure that there is.

Also, Abyagga (Non-distraction) and Samatha (calm) nimitta are the nimittas that cause one to enter first jhana. Abyagga just means Ekagatta.
And what fuels the arising of the awakening factor of immersion, or, when it has arisen, fully develops it?
Ko ca, bhikkhave, āhāro anuppannassa vā samādhisambojjhaṅgassa uppādāya, uppannassa vā samādhisambojjhaṅgassa bhāvanāya pāripūriyā?

There are things that are the foundation of serenity and freedom from distraction.
Atthi, bhikkhave, samathanimittaṃ abyagganimittaṃ.
- SN 46.51

and also SN 46.2
And what fuels the arising of the awakening factor of immersion, or, when it has arisen, fully develops it?
Ko ca, bhikkhave, āhāro anuppannassa vā samādhisambojjhaṅgassa uppādāya, uppannassa vā samādhisambojjhaṅgassa bhāvanāya pāripūriyā?

There are things that are the foundation of serenity and freedom from distraction.
Atthi, bhikkhave, samathanimittaṃ abyagganimittaṃ.

Frequent proper attention to them
Tattha yonisomanasikārabahulīkāro—

fuels the arising of the awakening factor of immersion, or, when it has arisen, fully develops it.
ayamāhāro anuppannassa vā samādhisambojjhaṅgassa uppādāya, uppannassa vā samādhisambojjhaṅgassa bhāvanāya pāripūriyā.
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