Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Chanh Dao
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Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by Chanh Dao »

Please be mindful of non-attachment and focus on the method itself.

Not the result.

Trying to achieve something will only lead to more trying and less achieving.


Allow things to happen naturally.

Apply effort.
Be mindful.

Do not hesitate to ask for help.


But please. Whether you are an expert or a newcomer to the path.

Remember that non-attachment and the impermanence of all phenomenon are not simply ideas to be grasped or understood but in fact are pointers to the very nature of this path.

The very nature of the mind itself.

So allow yourself to let go of any idea of attaining jhana.

Good luck.


*Do good deeds, practice non-attachment.*
char101
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by char101 »

I wonder why the Buddha would taught such not important thing and which is a barrier, even repeatedly mentioning it in the suttas.
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by SarathW »

char101 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:07 am I wonder why the Buddha would taught such not important thing and which is a barrier, even repeatedly mentioning it in the suttas.
In my opinion, the attachment to Vipassana is a good thing.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by SteRo »

Jhana is important because it is a characteristic of an appropriately pure mind. Therefore without jhana there is no attainment of nibbana. But jhana is attained through purification not through effort to attain it. Right effort should be directed to purification.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by Crazy cloud »

Jhana is a conditioned state and lies in the future if one do the right efforts. But still, a person is doing this effort, so to me, it's a waste of time to plan for it. The importance of Jhanic states is that the mind is being stilled and clear for doing an investigation, but that is done outside of the state of absorption. One can as well just relax and the mind will become still enough for doing investigations in a daily structure, and not plan for the next retreat in a possible future. Jhanic states can come without planning for it, it is my experience.
And btw; how much time does one need in states like Jhana - 1 hour - 10 - 100 - 1000?

Maybe a second is enough ... :juggling:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chanh Dao,
Chanh Dao wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:57 am Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.
I share the skepticism outlined above. The Buddha spent an awful lot of time talking about jhana and its benefits... not once calling it "a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching."
Chanh Dao wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:57 am Please be mindful of non-attachment and focus on the method itself.
What "method" is this? Are you slandering the Buddha's teaching in order to laud a "method" from outside the Buddha's teaching?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
Chanh Dao
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by Chanh Dao »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:22 pm Greetings Chanh Dao,
Chanh Dao wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:57 am Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.
I share the skepticism outlined above. The Buddha spent an awful lot of time talking about jhana and its benefits... not once calling it "a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching."
Chanh Dao wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:57 am Please be mindful of non-attachment and focus on the method itself.
What "method" is this? Are you slandering the Buddha's teaching in order to laud a "method" from outside the Buddha's teaching?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)

Yes as I said, the "attachment to jhana" is a massive hinderance on the path.

More poignantly to experiencing jhana at all one cannot be practicing from a place of attachment or clinging. It is antithetical to developing jhana.


The method? The Buddha is quite clear about this.

Sila, samadhi, panya.

Morality, Concentration, wisdom.

Visspassana and samatha. There are many ways of approaching meditation.

The method itself is something we each have to develop within ourselves.

Depending on our causes and conditions. Our karma.


Please if you have any suttas that would seem to contradict my statements I'm happy to recieve them.
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by Chanh Dao »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:52 am
char101 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:07 am I wonder why the Buddha would taught such not important thing and which is a barrier, even repeatedly mentioning it in the suttas.
In my opinion, the attachment to Vipassana is a good thing.

Clinging and attachment are in fact at the heart of our suffering. As taught by the Buddha.

But of course.

I encourage you to practice diligently!
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by lavantien »

Chanh Dao wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:12 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:22 pm Greetings Chanh Dao,
Chanh Dao wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:57 am Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.
I share the skepticism outlined above. The Buddha spent an awful lot of time talking about jhana and its benefits... not once calling it "a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching."
Chanh Dao wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:57 am Please be mindful of non-attachment and focus on the method itself.
What "method" is this? Are you slandering the Buddha's teaching in order to laud a "method" from outside the Buddha's teaching?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes as I said, the "attachment to jhana" is a massive hinderance on the path.
Don't misrepresent the Buddha and further propagate wrong view. Who on earth taught you like that? Can you cite a sutta or two that clearly support your statement?

Please study (or re-study) MN 22 - the simile of the snake, for wrongly grasp the snake will get you bitten. Only sensual pleasures are obstructive, not jhana. And with the simile of the boat, by the mean of skillful desire that you will arrive at the further shore.
https://suttacentral.net/mn22 wrote: “Is it really true, Ariṭṭha, that you have such a harmful misconception: ‘As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, the acts that he says are obstructions are not really obstructions for the one who performs them’?”

“Absolutely, sir. As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, the acts that he says are obstructions are not really obstructions for the one who performs them.”

Silly man, who on earth have you ever known me to teach in that way? Haven’t I said in many ways that obstructive acts are obstructive, and that they really do obstruct the one who performs them? I’ve said that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. With the similes of a skeleton … a lump of meat … a grass torch … a pit of glowing coals … a dream … borrowed goods … fruit on a tree … a butcher’s knife and chopping block … a staking sword … a snake’s head, I’ve said that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. But still you misrepresent me by your wrong grasp, harm yourself, and make much bad karma. This will be for your lasting harm and suffering.”

...

I’ve said that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. But still this Ariṭṭha misrepresents me by his wrong grasp, harms himself, and makes much bad karma. This will be for his lasting harm and suffering. Truly, mendicants, it’s not possible to perform sensual acts without sensual pleasures, sensual perceptions, and sensual thoughts.

Take a foolish person who memorizes the teaching—statements, songs, discussions, verses, inspired exclamations, legends, stories of past lives, amazing stories, and classifications. But they don’t examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom, and so don’t come to a reflective acceptance of them. They just memorize the teaching for the sake of finding fault and winning debates. They don’t realize the goal for which they memorized them. Because they’re wrongly grasped, those teachings lead to their lasting harm and suffering. Why is that? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.

Suppose there was a person in need of a snake. And while wandering in search of a snake they’d see a big snake, and grasp it by the coil or the tail. But that snake would twist back and bite them on the hand or the arm or limb, resulting in death or deadly pain. Why is that? Because of their wrong grasp of the snake.

In the same way, a foolish person memorizes the teaching … and those teachings lead to their lasting harm and suffering. Why is that? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.

Now, take a gentleman who memorizes the teaching—statements, songs, discussions, verses, inspired exclamations, legends, stories of past lives, amazing stories, and classifications. And once they’ve memorized them, they examine their meaning with wisdom, and come to a reflective acceptance of them. They don’t memorize the teaching for the sake of finding fault and winning debates. They realize the goal for which they memorized them. Because they’re correctly grasped, those teachings lead to their lasting welfare and happiness. Why is that? Because of their correct grasp of the teachings.

Suppose there was a person in need of a snake. And while wandering in search of a snake they’d see a big snake, and hold it down carefully with a cleft stick. Only then would they correctly grasp it by the neck. And even though that snake might wrap its coils around that person’s hand or arm or some other limb, that wouldn’t result in death or deadly pain. Why is that? Because of their correct grasp of the snake.

In the same way, a gentleman memorizes the teaching … and those teachings lead to their lasting welfare and happiness. Why is that? Because of their correct grasp of the teachings.

So, mendicants, when you understand what I’ve said, you should remember it accordingly. But if I’ve said anything that you don’t understand, you should ask me about it, or some competent mendicants.

Mendicants, I will teach you how the Dhamma is similar to a raft: it’s for crossing over, not for holding on. Listen and pay close attention, I will speak.”

“Yes, sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:

“Suppose there was a person traveling along the road. They’d see a large deluge, whose near shore was dubious and perilous, while the far shore was a sanctuary free of peril. But there was no ferryboat or bridge for crossing over. They’d think, ‘Why don’t I gather grass, sticks, branches, and leaves and make a raft? Riding on the raft, and paddling with my hands and feet, I can safely reach the far shore.’ And so they’d do exactly that. And when they’d crossed over to the far shore, they’d think, ‘This raft has been very helpful to me. Riding on the raft, and paddling with my hands and feet, I have safely crossed over to the far shore. Why don’t I hoist it on my head or pick it up on my shoulder and go wherever I want?’

What do you think, mendicants? Would that person be doing what should be done with that raft?”

“No, sir.”

“And what, mendicants, should that person do with the raft? When they’d crossed over they should think, ‘This raft has been very helpful to me. … Why don’t I beach it on dry land or set it adrift on the water and go wherever I want?’ That’s what that person should do with the raft.

In the same way, I have taught how the teaching is similar to a raft: it’s for crossing over, not for holding on. By understanding the simile of the raft, you will even give up the teachings, let alone what is against the teachings.
The Buddha always encourage the practice of Jhana, not otherwise. We shouldn't afraid Jhana, the practice should be encourage, not otherwise. I think most of us are not in a stage to worry about the subtle attachment to the Jhana - i.e. "not-an-anagami" yet, don't we? The Path is a gradual one, like a ladder is to be climbed step by step, not to jump suddenly and fall miserably in delusion and conceit.
https://suttacentral.net/mn66 wrote: "Udāyī, these are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds known by the ear … Smells known by the nose … Tastes known by the tongue … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation.

The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure—a filthy, ordinary, ignoble pleasure. Such pleasure should not be cultivated or developed, but should be feared, I say."

...

"Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption.

This is called the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of awakening. Such pleasure should be cultivated and developed, and should not be feared, I say."
"Then the Teacher, being sympathetic, and having compassion for the whole world,
said to me, “Come, monk!” That was my ordination.
Staying alone in the wilderness, meditating tirelessly,
I have completed what the Teacher taught, just as the victor advised me.

In the first watch of the night, I recollected my past lives.
In the middle watch of the night, I purified my clairvoyance.
In the last watch of the night, I shattered the mass of darkness."
- KN Thag 12.2
Chanh Dao
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by Chanh Dao »

lavantien wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:38 am
Chanh Dao wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:12 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:22 pm Greetings Chanh Dao,


I share the skepticism outlined above. The Buddha spent an awful lot of time talking about jhana and its benefits... not once calling it "a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching."


What "method" is this? Are you slandering the Buddha's teaching in order to laud a "method" from outside the Buddha's teaching?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes as I said, the "attachment to jhana" is a massive hinderance on the path.
Don't misrepresent the Buddha and further propagate wrong view. Who on earth taught you like that? Can you cite a sutta or two that clearly support your statement?

Please study (or re-study) MN 22 - the simile of the snake, for wrongly grasp the snake will get you bitten. Only sensual pleasures are obstructive, not jhana. And with the simile of the boat, by the mean of skillful desire that you will arrive at the further shore.
https://suttacentral.net/mn22 wrote: “Is it really true, Ariṭṭha, that you have such a harmful misconception: ‘As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, the acts that he says are obstructions are not really obstructions for the one who performs them’?”

“Absolutely, sir. As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, the acts that he says are obstructions are not really obstructions for the one who performs them.”

Silly man, who on earth have you ever known me to teach in that way? Haven’t I said in many ways that obstructive acts are obstructive, and that they really do obstruct the one who performs them? I’ve said that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. With the similes of a skeleton … a lump of meat … a grass torch … a pit of glowing coals … a dream … borrowed goods … fruit on a tree … a butcher’s knife and chopping block … a staking sword … a snake’s head, I’ve said that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. But still you misrepresent me by your wrong grasp, harm yourself, and make much bad karma. This will be for your lasting harm and suffering.”

...

I’ve said that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. But still this Ariṭṭha misrepresents me by his wrong grasp, harms himself, and makes much bad karma. This will be for his lasting harm and suffering. Truly, mendicants, it’s not possible to perform sensual acts without sensual pleasures, sensual perceptions, and sensual thoughts.

Take a foolish person who memorizes the teaching—statements, songs, discussions, verses, inspired exclamations, legends, stories of past lives, amazing stories, and classifications. But they don’t examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom, and so don’t come to a reflective acceptance of them. They just memorize the teaching for the sake of finding fault and winning debates. They don’t realize the goal for which they memorized them. Because they’re wrongly grasped, those teachings lead to their lasting harm and suffering. Why is that? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.

Suppose there was a person in need of a snake. And while wandering in search of a snake they’d see a big snake, and grasp it by the coil or the tail. But that snake would twist back and bite them on the hand or the arm or limb, resulting in death or deadly pain. Why is that? Because of their wrong grasp of the snake.

In the same way, a foolish person memorizes the teaching … and those teachings lead to their lasting harm and suffering. Why is that? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.

Now, take a gentleman who memorizes the teaching—statements, songs, discussions, verses, inspired exclamations, legends, stories of past lives, amazing stories, and classifications. And once they’ve memorized them, they examine their meaning with wisdom, and come to a reflective acceptance of them. They don’t memorize the teaching for the sake of finding fault and winning debates. They realize the goal for which they memorized them. Because they’re correctly grasped, those teachings lead to their lasting welfare and happiness. Why is that? Because of their correct grasp of the teachings.

Suppose there was a person in need of a snake. And while wandering in search of a snake they’d see a big snake, and hold it down carefully with a cleft stick. Only then would they correctly grasp it by the neck. And even though that snake might wrap its coils around that person’s hand or arm or some other limb, that wouldn’t result in death or deadly pain. Why is that? Because of their correct grasp of the snake.

In the same way, a gentleman memorizes the teaching … and those teachings lead to their lasting welfare and happiness. Why is that? Because of their correct grasp of the teachings.

So, mendicants, when you understand what I’ve said, you should remember it accordingly. But if I’ve said anything that you don’t understand, you should ask me about it, or some competent mendicants.

Mendicants, I will teach you how the Dhamma is similar to a raft: it’s for crossing over, not for holding on. Listen and pay close attention, I will speak.”

“Yes, sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:

“Suppose there was a person traveling along the road. They’d see a large deluge, whose near shore was dubious and perilous, while the far shore was a sanctuary free of peril. But there was no ferryboat or bridge for crossing over. They’d think, ‘Why don’t I gather grass, sticks, branches, and leaves and make a raft? Riding on the raft, and paddling with my hands and feet, I can safely reach the far shore.’ And so they’d do exactly that. And when they’d crossed over to the far shore, they’d think, ‘This raft has been very helpful to me. Riding on the raft, and paddling with my hands and feet, I have safely crossed over to the far shore. Why don’t I hoist it on my head or pick it up on my shoulder and go wherever I want?’

What do you think, mendicants? Would that person be doing what should be done with that raft?”

“No, sir.”

“And what, mendicants, should that person do with the raft? When they’d crossed over they should think, ‘This raft has been very helpful to me. … Why don’t I beach it on dry land or set it adrift on the water and go wherever I want?’ That’s what that person should do with the raft.

In the same way, I have taught how the teaching is similar to a raft: it’s for crossing over, not for holding on. By understanding the simile of the raft, you will even give up the teachings, let alone what is against the teachings.
The Buddha always encourage the practice of Jhana, not otherwise. We shouldn't afraid Jhana, the practice should be encourage, not otherwise. I think most of us are not in a stage to worry about the subtle attachment to the Jhana - i.e. "not-an-anagami" yet, don't we? The Path is a gradual one, like a ladder is to be climbed step by step, not to jump suddenly and fall miserably in delusion and conceit.
https://suttacentral.net/mn66 wrote: "Udāyī, these are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds known by the ear … Smells known by the nose … Tastes known by the tongue … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation.

The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure—a filthy, ordinary, ignoble pleasure. Such pleasure should not be cultivated or developed, but should be feared, I say."

...

"Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption.

This is called the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of awakening. Such pleasure should be cultivated and developed, and should not be feared, I say."


If we are attached to something, if we are craving something.

This is at the heart of our suffering.

I am not here to say jhana is good or bad.


I am here to say that attachment and craving are at the heart of our suffering.

Regardless of whether you are craving jhana or something else.


Within the practice we must be diligent and apply effort wholeheartedly.

Not because it will lead to jhana.

Because it is the path.



Focus on your direct experience in this moment and do not foster attachment or desire for any state.

These are the teachings of the Buddha.
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by mikenz66 »

lavantien wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:38 am
Yes as I said, the "attachment to jhana" is a massive hinderance on the path.
Don't misrepresent the Buddha and further propagate wrong view. Who on earth taught you like that? Can you cite a sutta or two that clearly support your statement?
Chanh Dao has already pointed out that attachment to anything is a hindrance to the path.

And, of course, jhana is not the goal:
“Here, householder, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He considers this and understands it thus: ‘This first jhāna is conditioned and volitionally produced. But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. ...
https://suttacentral.net/mn52/en/bodhi#sc6
While concentration is a key factor of the path, DN1 contains many examples of wrong view that can arise from deep concentration. https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/bodhi#bps30

And, as Thanissaro Bhikkhu notes:
Although at present we rarely think in the same terms as the Sāṅkhya philosophers, there has long been—and still is—a common tendency to create a “Buddhist” metaphysics in which the experience of emptiness, the Unconditioned, the Dharma-body, Buddha-nature, rigpa, etc., is said to function as the ground of being from which the “All”—the entirety of our sensory & mental experience—is said to spring and to which we return when we meditate. Some people think that these theories are the inventions of scholars without any direct meditative experience, but actually they have most often originated among meditators, who label (or in the words of the discourse, “perceive”) a particular meditative experience as the ultimate goal, identify with it in a subtle way (as when we are told that “we are the knowing”), and then suppose that level of experience to be the ground of being out of which all other experience comes.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN1.html
:heart:
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by constellation »

The Need to develop Mental Concentration (samādhi)

The noble Eightfold Path comprises the training of morality (sīla-sikkhā), the training of concentration (samādhi-sikkhā) and the training of wisdom (paññā-sikkhā).

The training of morality purifies the mind from gross, violent defilements (vītikkama-kilesās). The training of concentration purifies the mind from the arisen and agitating defilements (pariyuṭṭhāna-kilesās). The training of wisdom purifies the mind from latent defilements (anusaya-kilesās).

Thus, after developing and maintaining pure morality the pariyuṭṭhāna kilesās, including the hindrances (nīvaraṇās), keep on agitating and inflicting the mind, making the mind restless and distracted.

So the Buddha exhorted his disciples in Dhammapada to culture and tame the mind in order to enjoy peace and happiness.

“The mind is very subtle and delicate and very hard to see. It moves lightly and swiftly from one sense object to another and lands wherever it pleases. It is difficult to control the mind but the wise should control and tame it. A well tamed mind brings happiness.” (Dh. 35,36)

In Samādhi Sutta (Saṁyutta·Nikāya (Connected Collection) 2.12; S. 3.363), the Buddha exhorted bhikkhus to develop concentration to be able to see things as they really are.

"Samādhiṁ bhikkhave bhāvetha
samāhito bhikkhave bhikkhu
yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti."

"Oh bhikkhus, try to develop mental concentration. The bhikkhu who has developed concentration will be able to see things (the four Noble Truths) clearly and correctly as they really are.”

According to our experience, even if a meditator can focus his mind on a meditation subject continuously for one hour or more, he cannot penetrate into his body to see even his internal body parts, let alone the ultimate realities (paramatthas), unless he attains at least the neighbourhood or acess concentration (upacāra samādhi).

When a meditator truly attains access concentration or higher concentration (jhāna), he can penetrate into his body to see his internal organs such as flesh, sinews, bones, liver, heart, etc., and then penetrate further to see the ultimate realities. So he can undertake insight meditation (vipassanā) properly.

Thus in order to accomplish the training of concentration, to culture and tame the mind to the right concentration, and to proceed to vipassanā properly, we need to develop mental concentration.

According to the statement of the Buddha in Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta (M. 1.89), the right concentration (sammāsamādhi) is equivalent to the concentration associated with any of the four rūpāvacara kusala jhānas.

According to the statement of Visuddhi-magga (Vs. 2.222):
”Citta visuddhi nāma sa upacāra aṭṭha- samāpattiyo”
"The neighborhood concentration as well as the concentration associated with any of the eight jhāna attainments is called the purity of the mind."

So the neighborhood concentration should be included in the right concentration. A meditator uses either access concentration or jhāna concentration as the foundation of vipassanā and undertakes vipassanā defining mentality-materiality as impermanent (anicca), painful (dukkha) and not-self (anatta). The concentration that is associated with insight knowledge (vipassanā) in this way is called "khanikasamādhi”.

The Buddha described forty meditation subjects for samatha bhāvana. Any one of the forty subjects can be chosen to develop the right concentration, provided the instructions of the Buddha are correctly followed under the guidance of a competent meditation teacher.

Few words about The Exposition of Pahāna-pariññā (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36183) Calming body fabrications - what does it mean? (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36208)
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Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by lavantien »

Chanh Dao wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:16 pm If we are attached to something, if we are craving something.

This is at the heart of our suffering.

I am not here to say jhana is good or bad.


I am here to say that attachment and craving are at the heart of our suffering.

Regardless of whether you are craving jhana or something else.


Within the practice we must be diligent and apply effort wholeheartedly.

Not because it will lead to jhana.

Because it is the path.



Focus on your direct experience in this moment and do not foster attachment or desire for any state.

These are the teachings of the Buddha.
Sorry for my harsh reply. I understand your view point but I get triggered :shock: by seeing you saying "massive hindrance" :anjali:

My point is: in early stage of development there are more to consider (sensual desire, ill-will, wrong views ...) before we deal with the subtle hindrance of jhana. I see many of people focus on the higher doctrine of the Buddha even before they established their Sila - which lead to the increment of delusion and conceit.
"Then the Teacher, being sympathetic, and having compassion for the whole world,
said to me, “Come, monk!” That was my ordination.
Staying alone in the wilderness, meditating tirelessly,
I have completed what the Teacher taught, just as the victor advised me.

In the first watch of the night, I recollected my past lives.
In the middle watch of the night, I purified my clairvoyance.
In the last watch of the night, I shattered the mass of darkness."
- KN Thag 12.2
Chanh Dao
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:39 am

Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by Chanh Dao »

lavantien wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:08 am
Chanh Dao wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:16 pm If we are attached to something, if we are craving something.

This is at the heart of our suffering.

I am not here to say jhana is good or bad.


I am here to say that attachment and craving are at the heart of our suffering.

Regardless of whether you are craving jhana or something else.


Within the practice we must be diligent and apply effort wholeheartedly.

Not because it will lead to jhana.

Because it is the path.



Focus on your direct experience in this moment and do not foster attachment or desire for any state.

These are the teachings of the Buddha.
Sorry for my harsh reply. I understand your view point but I get triggered :shock: by seeing you saying "massive hindrance" :anjali:

My point is: in early stage of development there are more to consider (sensual desire, ill-will, wrong views ...) before we deal with the subtle hindrance of jhana. I see many of people focus on the higher doctrine of the Buddha even before they established their Sila - which lead to the increment of delusion and conceit.


I understand the misrepresentation on my behalf and it's possible there could be a better route in expressing what I'm trying to convey.

So if I have caused some distress I really do apologise.


Personally I've had some experience with young meditators being extremely focused on jhana and having jhana experiences. One good example is within the pa auk system there is quite a clear path to enlightenment which goes through a step by step process of jhana attainment.

So of course there is a massive attachment by young practioners to attain this jhana and begin the final steps to total enlightenment.

I think this can be a real hindrance!

I've even experienced some people convincing themselves that they have attained and experienced all 8 jhanas.

Having a massive attachment not only to that attainment but also using the descriptions to convince themselves of some kind of ultimate success and power on the meditative path.


So, that's really why I wanted to share this.


Of course. If anyone has some jhana laying around and wants to share I won't refuse it!

But it will never be something I am craving on my path of meditation or following the Buddha.


I walk the path step by step.

Not to attain pleasurable states.
But rather to become enlightened, in this lifetime.

And help others along the way.

-Bhikkhu Varrapanyo
Laurens
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:56 pm

Re: Jhana is not so important and In fact the attachment to it is a huge barrier on following the Buddha's teaching.

Post by Laurens »

I believe that Jhana is important, however it is misguided to focus one's efforts on attaining it.

People hear about it and it sounds amazing and intense and therefore they want to experience it, so they sit down to meditate and they look for all the little signs that they might be close, or try to proceed through some kind of formula to get there.

Really the effort should be focused on letting go and delving deep into the moment, rather than anticipating some future state where one enters into Jhana. For this reason it can be useful to ignore Jhana, and direct one's efforts towards letting go, and focusing on the present.

I think it's correct to say that many people approach Jhana wrongly, but I think it's incorrect to say that it's not important as I believe the Buddha often spoke of it's importance.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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