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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:06 am
by confusedlayman
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:23 pm
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:51 am
u need to fulfil cause and condition to enter jhana. anyone who can do it can enter jhana because it is dependent arising based on cause and condition
jhana is not dependent arising. dependent arising is the path to suffering and not the path to ending suffering
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:51 am
no use of judgement and we can take only positives from his instruction.
he is not teaching jhana. he is teaching something very simple that some people attach to. then these people post on forums claiming to have reach jhana and they make others feel inferior
Hi, personally i cant confirm if he is in real jhana. But u said jhana is not dependent arising? How do jhana come in to play? I mean does it has own conditions so we say jhana ? Can u rxplain me thanks!!!

Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:23 am
by DooDoot
confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:06 am
Hi, personally i cant confirm if he is in real jhana. But u said jhana is not dependent arising? How do jhana come in to play? I mean does it has own conditions so we say jhana ? Can u rxplain me thanks!!!
The Noble Eightfold Path is not called "dependent arising", per SN 12.3, because "dependent arising" is the path to suffering. Its called "vital conditions" ("saupanisaṃ"), per SN 12.23. Its just a quibble about terminology. :mrgreen:

Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:50 am
by confusedlayman
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:23 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:06 am
Hi, personally i cant confirm if he is in real jhana. But u said jhana is not dependent arising? How do jhana come in to play? I mean does it has own conditions so we say jhana ? Can u rxplain me thanks!!!
The Noble Eightfold Path is not called "dependent arising", per SN 12.3, because "dependent arising" is the path to suffering. Its called "vital conditions" ("saupanisaṃ"), per SN 12.23. Its just a quibble about terminology. :mrgreen:
hi.. there is mis understanding as I mean something others. what I meant was dependent arising means something that doesn't exist on its own. I think terminology prob...

Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:18 pm
by DooDoot
confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:50 am
what I meant was dependent arising means something that doesn't exist on its own.
The above sounds like Mahayana. Yes, its just terminology. The Pali says the Noble Path is "conditioned" ("sankhata") but appears to reserve the term "paticcasamuppada" ("dependent co-arising") only for the arising of suffering.
The noble eightfold path is conditioned.

Ariyo kho, āvuso visākha, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:29 am
by greenjuice
To return to the topic of Leigh and jhanas, i found another thing he says, he says he was on a retreat lead by Pa Auk Sayadaw, who told him he was entering 'gross piti', and should not have such intense piti (where his body was shaking and he was grinning and having a very intense feeling of bliss). He also told him to keep the access concentration much longer before going into the jhanas (3 or 4 hours instead of half an hour). When he would sustain access concentration long like this, he would get into a different kind of jhana than before, with much better concentration, in the sense the jhanas were much more stable and didn't need attention to keep them up, and that this had the effect that he could examine ("look at") jhana factors while in the jhanas. He (Leigh) then says that he thinks we could talk about four different types of jhanas:

1 Weak concentration - it is possible to examine the experience.
2 Moderate concentration - it is not possible to examine the experience.
3 Strong concentration - it is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own (this is what he achieved using Pa Auk Sayadaw's advice about longer access concentration)
4 Visuddhimagga concentration - it is not possible to examine the experience because of the total absorption.

When he achieved that 3rd type using Pa Auk Sayadaw's advice about longer access concentration, he says about that "I must say that now suttas like MN 111 where Sariputta describes his insight into the jhana factors makes a great deal more sense to me now."

Also, another detail, I asked Leigh whether he had entered all the jhanas, both form and formless, he says he did, and that when he (in his paper "Sharpening Manjushri's Sword") wrote the instructions for entering all (both form and formless) jhanas, he was writing about things he had himself experienced.

Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:09 am
by DooDoot
greenjuice wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:29 am
To return to the topic of Leigh and jhanas, i found another thing he says, he says he was on a retreat lead by Pa Auk Sayadaw, who told him he was entering 'gross piti', and should not have such intense piti (where his body was shaking and he was grinning and having a very intense feeling of bliss).
While the above is true (body shaking & grinning should not occur in jhana), the above is just the ramblings of an individual.
greenjuice wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:29 am
He also told him to keep the access concentration much longer before going into the jhanas (3 or 4 hours instead of half an hour).
The above appears irrelevant because a shaking body from suppression is very far from jhana. My advice would be to: (i) actually reach access concentration; and (ii) keep the access concentration much longer before going it can go into the jhanas (3 or 4 months instead of half an hour).

The very fact the Leigh believes an actual deliberate decision is made to go into jhana is contrary to how senior monks describe jhana.
greenjuice wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:29 am
When he would sustain access concentration long like this, he would get into a different kind of jhana than before, with much better concentration, in the sense the jhanas were much more stable and didn't need attention to keep them up, and that this had the effect that he could examine ("look at") jhana factors while in the jhanas. He (Leigh) then says that he thinks we could talk about four different types of jhanas:
The above appears to be more non-sense, about "different types of jhana".
greenjuice wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:29 am
1 Weak concentration - it is possible to examine the experience.
2 Moderate concentration - it is not possible to examine the experience.
3 Strong concentration - it is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own (this is what he achieved using Pa Auk Sayadaw's advice about longer access concentration)
4 Visuddhimagga concentration - it is not possible to examine the experience because of the total absorption.
Yes, as I suspected. The above sounds nonsensical.
greenjuice wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:29 am
When he achieved that 3rd type using Pa Auk Sayadaw's advice about longer access concentration, he says about that "I must say that now suttas like MN 111 where Sariputta describes his insight into the jhana factors makes a great deal more sense to me now."
Doesn't sound like any actual "jhana" was acheived.
greenjuice wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:29 am
Also, another detail, I asked Leigh whether he had entered all the jhanas, both form and formless, he says he did, and that when he (in his paper "Sharpening Manjushri's Sword") wrote the instructions for entering all (both form and formless) jhanas, he was writing about things he had himself experienced.
It sounds like writing about things he imagined he experienced. Possibly you can ask Leigh about abandoning attachment & selfing towards experiences. :smile:

Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:37 am
by greenjuice
What is your deal? Can you stop answering to my posts? You have nothing of value to say, or at least nothing of interest to me. I'm asking you to stop. Put me on the block list and ignore my posts, whatever.

Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:48 am
by DooDoot
greenjuice wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:37 am
You have nothing of value to say, or at least nothing of interest to me.
Well, you have asked many questions about supermarket Buddhism & I have kindly & generously offered Pali sutta answers. If there is ungratefulness & if what is of value is nothing of interest to you, I will not reply to your posts. It is a sin in Buddhism to teach those who are not interested in Dhamma; and naturally, it is not practise to teach non-dhamma (such as teaching Leigh's apparent imaginings about jhana are actually real jhana). Keep in mind, this is a Theravada forum; so it appears non-dhammic to post about non-jhana as being jhana. The Vinaya refers to "overestimating" jhana and such overestimating can save a monk, who behaves like Leigh, from defeat & expulsion. There appears to be zero evidence in the suttas & even commentaries of "different types of jhana". For example, if the Visuddhimagga description of jhana is not the same as the suttas, it obviously remains the belief of the Visuddhimagga that their description of jhana is the jhanas of the suttas. :smile:

:hello:
This is the best of gifts: the gift of Dhamma. And this is the best of friendly speech: to teach again and again Dhamma to those who wish for it and who listen attentively.

AN 9.5

Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:25 am
by robertk
For example, if the Visuddhimagga description of jhana is not the same as the suttas, it obviously remains the belief of the Visuddhimagga that their description of jhana is the jhanas of the suttas
Yes. :anjali:

Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:51 pm
by greenjuice
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:48 am
Well, you have asked many questions about supermarket Buddhism & I have kindly bla bla bla
Sure thing dude, whatever nonsense you need to believe to uphold that hollowly complacent persona. So long.