is anapanasati concentration?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
sunnat
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by sunnat » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:12 am

Practicing, or training to recognise what type of breath, long short, in out, there, not there. etc in any present moment, in a small area around the mouth, ardently, continuously, moment to moment makes for a focused and equanimous mind. This then serves one well in the rest of practice. (Though the Venerable Webu Sayadaw maintained that anapanasati is all one needs to know and I can understand what he means.)... and the rest of practice is observing anicca.

While observing anicca a storm rises and the mind is tossed about. Anapanasati is then the anchor one throws to shelter till the storm passes.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5780
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:44 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:36 am
Tranquilizing the breath does not make sense.

Breath is simply air coming in and out of the lungs.

Tranquilizing the breath “process” makes more sense.

What is the breath process? It is simply the rise and fall of the breathing diaphragm - with the help of surrounding abdominal and back muscles.

There is no way to make the very air you breathe “tranquil”. What becomes tranquil is the body itself and the breathing apparatus - not to mention areas of the brain responsible for triggering breathing.
Obviously it is not Baby Boomers who are ruining Buddhism for you.
Nobody can sit here and directly relax the body, but we discover that we can relax the flesh-body by making the breath calm. If the breathing is calm, the flesh-body will be calm. This is how we can control the body indirectly

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by Pondera » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:44 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:36 am
Tranquilizing the breath does not make sense.

Breath is simply air coming in and out of the lungs.

Tranquilizing the breath “process” makes more sense.

What is the breath process? It is simply the rise and fall of the breathing diaphragm - with the help of surrounding abdominal and back muscles.

There is no way to make the very air you breathe “tranquil”. What becomes tranquil is the body itself and the breathing apparatus - not to mention areas of the brain responsible for triggering breathing.
Obviously it is not Baby Boomers who are ruining Buddhism for you.
Do you always resort to snide remarks if and when you don’t have a proper response to criticism? Brush up on your philosophical fallacies, my reverend Guru - that’s called “ad hominem”. :thinking:

And. No. It’s not. It’s you damn Generation X’ers. You had your chance to change the world - steer it away from the boomers - and you just cuddled up to the corporate kitty. Not to mention - you savaged the Anapanasati sutta. :broke:

Quite honestly, DooDoot - I was taught this: breath in relaxation, breath out stress.

And the rest of my practice doesn’t suffer from anything. It’s going quite well at the moment. I adhere to the “Kimattha Sutta”.

That is how I reached Unbinding at the age of 26 and that is how I will continue to lead a life full of mental satisfaction.

I don’t need to concentrate on my breath.
Nobody can sit here and directly relax the body, but we discover that we can relax the flesh-body by making the breath calm. If the breathing is calm, the flesh-body will be calm. This is how we can control the body indirectly

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
With all due respect for the venerable who wrote this, I feel sorry for him.

“Concentration” is mental effort. Mental effort can relax the body quite easily. Making the mental effort to let go of consciousness also relaxes the body.

Again; I’ll draw your attention to the Kimattha Sutta.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Why would I need anapanasati when I have this?
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

sunnat
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

self

Post by sunnat » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:05 am

the identification of opinion as self is painful to abandon

to start, sit, bring the awareness to the area around the mouth...

that clinging that stops you from this, that sensation, is the self.

calmly, begin to be aware of that sensation, rising and passing away.

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by Pondera » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:36 am

Sunna

Is that what it means to “know” one is breathing? To be sensitive to your mouth area? Are you a mouth breather? Do you have sinus congestion? What if I breath through my nose? And finally where is this instruction indicated in the Anapanasati Sutta?
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

sunnat
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by sunnat » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:51 am

Some more from :
To Light a Fire
A Dhamma Discourse
by
The Venerable Webu Sayadaw
"WEBU SAYADAW: You have taken the moral precepts, now practice them. Only when your practice of morality (sila) is perfect can you fulfill your aspirations for awakening. Having perfected yourselves in morality, you have to perform various other meritorious practices, and these can take you to the pinnacle and the fulfillment of your aspirations.

The teachings of the Buddha are enshrined in the Tipitaka. These teachings were not given by the Buddha just to be preached and studied. You are good people; you have to practice the teachings with unwavering effort from the time you obtain them in order to escape from this suffering.

Do not get confused about the teachings. We don't have to know many techniques, only one; but that we should know clearly. If we establish one technique with strong effort and get rid of all doubts then, without asking anyone else, we shall find the answers.

Choose one technique and practice it steadfastly. If you focus your mind at the small spot where the air touches when you breathe in and out, then there will be no wanting, no aversion or delusion, and as these three are absent, you are immediately out of suffering." in the moment, continue practicing...

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by Pondera » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:50 am

Another venerable I feel sorry for. Not what the Buddha intended. Not supported by the suttas. And not an escape from suffering.
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

Dinsdale
Posts: 6641
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:54 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:36 am
Sunna

Is that what it means to “know” one is breathing? To be sensitive to your mouth area? Are you a mouth breather? Do you have sinus congestion? What if I breath through my nose? And finally where is this instruction indicated in the Anapanasati Sutta?
To be fair, there is very little detail in the Anapanasati Sutta on these questions, and there is no consensus on how the four tetras should be interpretated.
It comes down to whose commentary you prefer.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5780
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:00 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:54 am
To be fair, there is very little detail in the Anapanasati Sutta on these questions, and there is no consensus on how the four tetras should be interpretated.
Sorry but the Anapanasati Sutta appears explicit in its instructions when referring to "mindfulness":
There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; always mindful he breathes out.

I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development.

And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in [maturing as] relinquishment [letting go; vossagga].

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:meditate:
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:54 am
It comes down to whose commentary you prefer.
Sorry Commentator Dinsdale but it doesn't seem to come down to whose commentary you prefer. It appears to come down to what the Anapanasati Sutta instructs. Anapanasati appears not separate from the Noble Truths & Eightfold Path, which instruct the abandoning of craving.

:smile:
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. MN 117

And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go [vossagga], attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. SN 48.10
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by Pondera » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:12 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:54 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:36 am
Sunna

Is that what it means to “know” one is breathing? To be sensitive to your mouth area? Are you a mouth breather? Do you have sinus congestion? What if I breath through my nose? And finally where is this instruction indicated in the Anapanasati Sutta?
To be fair, there is very little detail in the Anapanasati Sutta on these questions, and there is no consensus on how the four tetras should be interpretated.
It comes down to whose commentary you prefer.
I’ll agree with DooDoot that the suttas say a sufficient amount to get one started and that nothing in it the suttas pertain to focussing on the nostrils, the sensation on the upper lip, the breathing diaphragm, etc.

If any of these venerables have reached rapture using their pet techniques - that is all well and good. I personally don’t think their specific commentary is useful at all. It allows one to “feel” as though they’re really “making progress” and that any difficulty “anchoring” the mind to the nostril, the upper lip, etc. is something to be overcome. These distractions are a waste of time.

Know that you’re breathing in and out long. Move on.

Know that you’re breathing in and out short. Move on.

Next ... oh DooDoot. This is where we need your help. Should we breath in tranquilizing the air as it enters our body? This is where your help would be useful. I’m confused about this next part. :stirthepot: :jumping:
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

Dinsdale
Posts: 6641
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:16 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:55 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:44 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:36 am
Tranquilizing the breath does not make sense.

Breath is simply air coming in and out of the lungs.

Tranquilizing the breath “process” makes more sense.

What is the breath process? It is simply the rise and fall of the breathing diaphragm - with the help of surrounding abdominal and back muscles.

There is no way to make the very air you breathe “tranquil”. What becomes tranquil is the body itself and the breathing apparatus - not to mention areas of the brain responsible for triggering breathing.
Obviously it is not Baby Boomers who are ruining Buddhism for you.
Do you always resort to snide remarks if and when you don’t have a proper response to criticism? Brush up on your philosophical fallacies, my reverend Guru - that’s called “ad hominem”. :thinking:

And. No. It’s not. It’s you damn Generation X’ers. You had your chance to change the world - steer it away from the boomers - and you just cuddled up to the corporate kitty. Not to mention - you savaged the Anapanasati sutta. :broke:

Quite honestly, DooDoot - I was taught this: breath in relaxation, breath out stress.

And the rest of my practice doesn’t suffer from anything. It’s going quite well at the moment. I adhere to the “Kimattha Sutta”.

That is how I reached Unbinding at the age of 26 and that is how I will continue to lead a life full of mental satisfaction.

I don’t need to concentrate on my breath.
Nobody can sit here and directly relax the body, but we discover that we can relax the flesh-body by making the breath calm. If the breathing is calm, the flesh-body will be calm. This is how we can control the body indirectly

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
With all due respect for the venerable who wrote this, I feel sorry for him.

“Concentration” is mental effort. Mental effort can relax the body quite easily. Making the mental effort to let go of consciousness also relaxes the body.

Again; I’ll draw your attention to the Kimattha Sutta.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Why would I need anapanasati when I have this?
There are 40 meditation objects listed in the Vissudhimagga, but it seems that people get fixated on the breath, and then have these long-winded arguments about it. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5780
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:20 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:16 am
There are 40 meditation objects listed in the Vissudhimagga, but it seems that people get fixated on the breath, and then have these long-winded arguments about it.
:focus:
Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:12 am
I’ll agree with DooDoot that the suttas say a sufficient amount to get one started and that nothing in it the suttas pertain to focussing on the nostrils, the sensation on the upper lip, the breathing diaphragm, etc.
:twothumbsup: However, focusing on the nostrils, etc, is still a useful training exercise for newbies and can be used until it stops bringing significant results.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:12 am
Next ... oh DooDoot. This is where we need your help. Should we breath in tranquilizing the air as it enters our body? This is where your help would be useful. I’m confused about this next part.
If you run fast or run a long distance, the breath becomes more vigorous, as the body needs to consume more breath. Similarly, if the mind is thinking a lot, the breathing becomes more activated. But when the body & mind stop activity, the breathing naturally tranquilizes due to the reduction of activity. Thus, it is said any discernible breathing completely ceases in the 4th jhana.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Dinsdale
Posts: 6641
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:20 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:12 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:54 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:36 am
Sunna

Is that what it means to “know” one is breathing? To be sensitive to your mouth area? Are you a mouth breather? Do you have sinus congestion? What if I breath through my nose? And finally where is this instruction indicated in the Anapanasati Sutta?
To be fair, there is very little detail in the Anapanasati Sutta on these questions, and there is no consensus on how the four tetras should be interpretated.
It comes down to whose commentary you prefer.
I’ll agree with DooDoot that the suttas say a sufficient amount to get one started and that nothing in it the suttas pertain to focussing on the nostrils, the sensation on the upper lip, the breathing diaphragm, etc.

If any of these venerables have reached rapture using their pet techniques - that is all well and good. I personally don’t think their specific commentary is useful at all. It allows one to “feel” as though they’re really “making progress” and that any difficulty “anchoring” the mind to the nostril, the upper lip, etc. is something to be overcome. These distractions are a waste of time.

Know that you’re breathing in and out long. Move on.

Know that you’re breathing in and out short. Move on.

Next ... oh DooDoot. This is where we need your help. Should we breath in tranquilizing the air as it enters our body? This is where your help would be useful. I’m confused about this next part. :stirthepot: :jumping:
The suttas just talk about knowing the breath, and there are various ways to do that. Like I said, it depends whose commentary or interpretation you subscribe too.
There will always be self-proclaimed "experts" who are convinced they know best.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5780
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:22 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:20 am
The suttas just talk about knowing the breath, and there are various ways to do that.
The suttas appear to only refer to one way. :smile:
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:20 am
Like I said, it depends whose commentary or interpretation you subscribe too.
What you said is just your opinion. It appears commentary or interpretation is for those who have not discerned the one way of the suttas. Its seems what the practise of mindfulness is, according to sutta, is literal & explicit. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

lithos
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:07 pm

Re: is anapanasati concentration?

Post by lithos » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:18 am

1) I am aware, mindful, in the present moment .
2) I know when I´m breathing long.
3) I know when I´m breathing short.
4) As I´m aware of the breath all the time, the breath (or the process of breath) starts to get thinner, this, in turn, makes me feel the whole body in a very light way.
5) As I´m still aware of the breath all the time this sensation of lightness becomes more evident, I feel more relaxed.
6) Now, it seems that there are two possibilities: to find a fixed point in which to sense the passing of the breath and get concentrated in it, or to keep the attention more deeply in the breath. Both possibilities involve an increase of the concentration-samadhi. I suspect (and taste) that the more collected the mind is, more concentrated, this is the key to proceed to the next step: let the rapture arise.

If so we can consider that the focus on a certain point is a strategy, "a trick", as Buddhadasa says in his book, to increase the concentratrion, to make the mind less dispersed. But if it is possible to get this degree on uninterrupted attention only with the breath it wouldn´t be necessary the point...

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests