Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:56 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:45 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:34 pm
MN 128 speaks about Light AND Vision (vision is an abhinna that arises in 4th jhana).

Did you not see the sutta I quoted talking about only seeing Light and not Vision?
The vision of light and form is possible even before the first jhana is reached, as is the attainment of some iddhi. In the fourth jhana, the faculties of divine sight and divine hearing (if desired, and the application of effort) is brought to perfection, and then there is the ability to come into contact with deities, etc., as described in AN 8.64. MN 128 says only that the visions of light and form began to appear, but disappeared because of obstacles (which are obstacles to entering the first jhana).
Not according to the suttas. Abhinnas arise in 4th jhana, and as he said in the other sutta I linked, he first attained light but not vision, and then after afterwards he attained vision where he saw devas. MN 128 talks about losing Light AND Vision, not just light.

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:20 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:56 pm
Not according to the suttas. Abhinnas arise in 4th jhana, and as he said in the other sutta I linked, he first attained light but not vision, and then after afterwards he attained vision where he saw devas. MN 128 talks about losing Light AND Vision, not just light.
About vision of deities, in МН 128 nothing is said. The vision of light and forms is about nimitta, which can be not just like light, but have the appearance of luminous, geometric patterns of a particular color that are in motion.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:40 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:51 pm
auto wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pm
idk stone
I do not understand. What it is?
idk= i don't know, i picked random word for to denote object of concentration.
auto wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pm
So what are the reasons the sign appear?
Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:51 pm
A certain level (very exalted, superhuman) of detachment from the defilements that chain the mind to kama-loka.

could that superhuman detachment be viriya?

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:32 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:40 pm
could that superhuman detachment be viriya?
Diligence alone is not enough. In order to achieve the first jhana, all factors of awakening must be developed to a certain extent. Also, to a certain extent, the aggregate of wisdom, virtue and concentration must be developed.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:50 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:34 pm
MN 128 speaks about Light AND Vision (vision is an abhinna that arises in 4th jhana).
Budo. MN 128 appears to be about development of psychic powers regarding Anuruddha, who became a master of psychic powers. It doesn't appear to be about jhana or jhana nimittas.

:focus:
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Akashad
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Re: Jhana

Post by Akashad » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:40 am

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:12 am
Jhana as a tool of ekayana, some sweep jhana aside as too difficult, and use negative terms such as 'jhana clingers', for those who practice this path of ekayana.
But the 4 rupa jhanas, when rightly practiced, constitute the 8th factor of noble Path. If one rejects these, by calling these special attainments, is it not a rejection of the noble Path?
I find it more difficult to maintain right speech at all times, as indicated in MN 117, I falter more there, than with my practice of jhana. How about yours?
Which attainment do you find easier? We all know that if we abstain from either of these, we are also not following the Noble Path. I like to hear from those that do not reject MN 117, because for me this is the one sutta that expounds the Noble Path to its end, defining each factor with great clarity, starting from right view, ending with right knowledge and right liberation. Again what is easier for you? Right speech or right concentration?
:candle:
Yes I agree you need four jhanas as that is defined as right concentration.But there are dry insight meditators.I don't believe they are just developing insight from scratch.I believe in our countless lives we have all in some way or form accumulated concentration and practiced samadhi.It's just we can choose depending on our minds inclination what to practice first.so we can practice samadhi then vippasanna ,others can practice vippasanna then samadhi or you can practice both.

Developing the Jhanas makes insight practice more stable and because the object changes quickly without jhana it's really hard as the mind gets tired.But some people have excessive energy and can go on investigating for miles.without basic jhana using the breath,anapanasati,it hard to develop other samadhi objects like Metta as the mind gets tired repeating phrases or the image or thought of that person doesn't last long.So it's not just necessary for vippasanna but also for other samadhi objects which can really accumulate concentration to the point where one can see things clearly.
🙏

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:03 am

Dear Akashad, I am not denying another's practice, or what works for them, I just wanted to say that
I find right speech, is harder for me than accomplishing right jhana, inference being right jhana is not that
hard to accomplish, as some folks imply. With that in mind...
You wrote
Yes I agree you need four jhanas as that is defined as right concentration. But there are dry insight meditators
Yes
dry insight
it appears in the canon, and is repeated in commentaries. Did Buddha of the canon ever use the word Dry insight?
Without getting into it, why the need for dry insight? when normal insight is doable, for one who is resolved on the path?
A calm mind is a requisite, not any more calmer than the one gained by practicing the 7th factor of 10 fold path
One's regular Sati, as explained in the samyutta of the satipatthana. Ethical behavior is a must, and also one must be removed from the family drama, or the TV dramas. These are minimal requirements for dry insight too, I imagine.
A disturbed mind is not a place to practice Buddha's teaching. Are not the jhanas from 1-3 something that can be practiced even by a person in a non-buddhist monastery? I agree no insight here yet, but without practicing the first three?
My post comparing right speech to right jhana as in MN 117, was meant to nudge those buddhists that say Jhana is impossible to accomplish.
But if one were to sit and think,
I am looking for jhana but the quiescence of jhana, does not enter my mind
That is wrong practice. Jhana is not like that, not even the first jhana. When you renounce the thinking and relax, either letting breath suffuse all cells of your body, or have the image of a pebble hitting the water and rippling through the water, at that point there are no hindrances in your mind, you'll get a short insight into how peaceful the first jhana is, one's thoughts are rested, nothing intervenes, except that ripple permeating the water. This could very easily happen to one while walking the silent woods, or to the artist entirely engaged in his task. I merely want to express the simplicity of jhana, without complicating it by using words like nimitta etc, because words like nimitta
and kasina frightened me once, not anymore. Now I think this stuff is so simple, one can develop an aptitude for it, and then take it from there. :candle:
PS In fact the canon emphasizes the simplicity of the first jhana, by pointing to the fact, that after all the hard work Buddha did, for many years, it is the simplicity of the first jhana, done as a 6 year old, that brought him to the practical uses of jhana

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:52 am

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:03 am
I find right speech, is harder for me than accomplishing right jhana, inference being right jhana is not that
hard to accomplish, as some folks imply. With that in mind...
Indeed. To continue to claim non-jhana as 'jhana' and to continue to claim attaining 'jhana' when jhana has not occurred will certainly make right speech harder, if not impossible, to accomplish. Since a wise person knows most people cannot even know what jhana is, a wise person would not argue about jhana with ordinary people. The more we post about jhana, the further away we are from wisdom. Since jhana is said to be a 'supernormal attainment', why would it be 'easy'?

Logically, a person that has attained jhana would have right speech, given, to attain jhana, I imagine the citta is highly sensitive to morality. For example, in the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha said each of the last 14 steps includes training in morality, concentration & wisdom. When Anapanasati is mastered, I imagine the citta is extremely sensitive to any wrong actions; let alone highly sensitive to the evil vibration of any clinging. Thus, right speech & right jhana will obviously exist together. Since the five hindrances are absent for the True Jhanee, obviously the speech of a True Jhanee would be Right.

The beauty of the Dhamma is its Truthfulness catches out illogical speech & mistakes. The Buddha taught the Eightfold Path, where Right Speech is a prerequisite of Right Concentration. Therefore, anyone that struggles to practise Right Speech obviously has not attained Jhana. MN 117 says:
Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:51 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:32 pm
auto wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:40 pm
could that superhuman detachment be viriya?
Diligence alone is not enough. In order to achieve the first jhana, all factors of awakening must be developed to a certain extent. Also, to a certain extent, the aggregate of wisdom, virtue and concentration must be developed.
.

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.35/en/sujato
“Mendicants, a mendicant should live mindful and aware. “Sato, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vihareyya sampajāno. This is my instruction to you. Ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanī.
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.36/en/sujato
Because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation, one of two results can be expected:
Imesaṃ kho, bhikkhave, catunnaṃ satipaṭṭhānānaṃ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā dvinnaṃ phalānaṃ aññataraṃ phalaṃ pāṭikaṅkhaṃ—
enlightenment in the present life, or if there’s something left over, non-return.” diṭṭheva dhamme aññā, sati vā upādisese anāgāmitā”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn6.3/en/sujato
Then Venerable Brahmadeva, living alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute, soon realized the supreme end of the spiritual path in this very life. He lived having achieved with his own insight the goal for which gentlemen rightly go forth from the lay life to homelessness.
Atha kho āyasmā brahmadevo eko vūpakaṭṭho appamatto ātāpī pahitatto viharanto nacirasseva—yassatthāya kulaputtā sammadeva agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajanti, tadanuttaraṃ—brahmacariyapariyosānaṃ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja vihāsi.
He understood: “Rebirth is ended; the spiritual journey has been completed; what had to be done has been done; there is no return to any state of existence.” “Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā”ti abbhaññāsi. And Venerable Brahmadeva became one of the perfected. Aññataro ca panāyasmā brahmadevo arahataṃ ahosi.
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.36/en/sujato
“Mendicants, there are these four kinds of mindfulness meditation. “Cattārome, bhikkhave, satipaṭṭhānā.
What four? Katame cattāro?
It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ;
They meditate observing an aspect of feelings … vedanāsu … pe … mind … citte … pe … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.
observing aspect of body, feelings, mind, principles/dhamma.

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.35/en/sujato
That’s how a mendicant is mindful. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sato hoti.

And how is a mendicant aware?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sampajāno hoti?
It’s when a mendicant knows feelings as they arise, as they remain, and as they go away. Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno viditā vedanā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.
They know thoughts as they arise, as they remain, and as they go away. Viditā vitakkā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. They know perceptions as they arise, as they remain, and as they go away. Viditā saññā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. That’s how a mendicant is aware. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sampajāno hoti.
A mendicant should live mindful and aware. Sato, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vihareyya sampajāno.

not going to post full Sutta.

but it seem when "rebirth ended" it is not absolute but mean rebirth ended and not coming back to this state of existence in kama loka. You can go for alms(physical body is here in kamaloka) but your original place now is in above desire realm ie Brahma realm it doesn't require jhana to end rebirth.

the Brahma realm abider can have wrong views like belief in permanent self:

https://suttacentral.net/sn6.4/en/sujato
Now at that time Baka the Brahmā had the following harmful misconception: Tena kho pana samayena bakassa brahmuno evarūpaṃ pāpakaṃ diṭṭhigataṃ uppannaṃ hoti:
“This is permanent, this is everlasting, this is eternal, this is whole, this is imperishable. For this is where there’s no being born, growing old, dying, passing away, or being reborn. And there’s no other escape beyond this.” “idaṃ niccaṃ, idaṃ dhuvaṃ, idaṃ sassataṃ, idaṃ kevalaṃ, idaṃ acavanadhammaṃ, idañhi na jāyati na jīyati na mīyati na cavati na upapajjati, ito ca panaññaṃ uttari nissaraṇaṃ natthī”ti.
they don't know there is more, higher escape(hence perhaps claim of not returning to any state of existence). And those higher places are Jhanas i think.

but still the path to Brahma realm is pretty unknown,

https://suttacentral.net/sn6.3/en/sujato
“Far from here is the Brahmā realm, madam, “Dūre ito brāhmaṇi brahmaloko,
to which you offer a regular oblation. Yassāhutiṃ paggaṇhāsi niccaṃ;
But Brahmā doesn’t eat that kind of food. Netādiso brāhmaṇi brahmabhakkho,
Why make invocations, when you don’t know the path to Brahmā? Kiṃ jappasi brahmapathaṃ ajānaṃ.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:56 pm

Dear Auto, I have little time now, I only read the last sutta you posted,
excerpts
He has no before and after, peaceful, unclouded, untroubled, with no need for hope,
he has laid down the rod for all creatures firm and frail.
With peaceful mind, he has left the crowd, he wanders like a tamed elephant, unperturbed.
He’s a mendicant fair in ethics, with heart well freed.
It makes Dhamma Wheel, a beautiful place. Thank you.
PS I will respond to other comments later. Have a beautiful Day :candle:

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:44 pm

auto wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:51 pm
the Brahma realm abider can have wrong views like belief in permanent self
Yes. But in order to master the jhana and be born in the worlds of rupa-loka, it is necessary to develop to a certain extent virtue, concentration and wisdom. Virtue must be developed practically to complete perfection, concentration must be developed to master one or another jhana or formless sphere in order to be born in the corresponding world, and wisdom must be developed, at least to discard destructive beliefs, distinguish good and evil, and must have views about kamma. If Brahma is not Arya, then its killesa are only suppressed, the thirst for existence is active, and also the thirst for sensual pleasures will germinate again as soon as the birth in kama-loka follows.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:48 pm

Antaradhana
Thank you for bringing up MN 128. It is a very unusual sutta. I am not familiar with its method.
I had assumed the obstacles were part of normal hindrances, I found it to be not so. Have you meditated like this using obasanimitta?
Regarding the mental obstructions there is a discrepancy in the Pali sutta. Did you notice? Sensual desire and aversion are absent in Chinese version. An excerpt from Chinese version.
This list of mental obstructions does not mention the first two of the five hindrances, sensual desire and aversion. Their absence indicates that the meditative development described in the present discourse sets in at a more advanced stage, when these two comparatively gross mental defilements have been subdued and a minimum degree of mental tranquillity has already been established.

So MN 128 is describing an advanced stage ??? yet it also speaks of the 4 states of rupa jhana, which is occasionally split into two, meaning the first jhana is split into two, first with vitaka, and second with a residual of vicara. I am familiar with this method of jhana. It is called 5 step rupa jhana.
Your comments? I am happy you joined the thread.
Quite a learning experience. :candle:
Anything you say is precious. It helps to hear of the practice of others.
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:53 pm

DooDoot wrote
Logically, a person that has attained jhana would have right speech
Another participant on the thread brought this up, I have explained my position,
there. Be well dear DooDoot :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:11 pm

DooDoot wrote
budo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:34 am
MN 128 speaks about Light AND Vision (vision is an abhinna that arises in 4th jhana).
Budo. MN 128 appears to be about development of psychic powers regarding Anuruddha, who became a master of psychic powers. It doesn't appear to be about jhana or jhana nimittas.

Dear DooDoot Budo is not wrong here. The sutta speaks of Jhana and obasanimitta. However it is not the usual jhana formula found in many suttas.
Hindrances are split up, which implies that the meditators are in a more advanced stage, and obstructions
seem to have appeared in the 4th jhana, a list of ten that is kinda unique, the first time I came across it
was when Antaradhana brought it up.
Help us with it if you can, but from what you say, you do not seem to practice this sort of jhana. Your practice
appears exclusively to be on Anapanasati.
What you say
psychic powers of Anuruddha
is true, later he developed these, but this sutta does not say anything about Buddha training him in such powers, and Buddha was instructing 3 monks here.
One reads in MN 31 that all 3 monks later became Arahants, and there, there is
another inquiry by Buddha of supernormal powers, since now they are Arahants. What makes you
think Buddha is training them in Divine Eye? :candle:

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Akashad
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Re: Jhana

Post by Akashad » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:48 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:03 am
Dear Akashad, I am not denying another's practice, or what works for them, I just wanted to say that
I find right speech, is harder for me than accomplishing right jhana, inference being right jhana is not that
hard to accomplish, as some folks imply. With that in mind...
Yes I agree,samadhi can be much easier as we are basically "resting/absorbing".Im not sure which jhana you are practicing as people interpret them differently so I have to mention it so people don't get confused.The Jhana that I know of is the one where you absolutely need to immerse into a visual nimitta so mind within mind,like when you knead bread ,bread dough within bread dough,but others consider jhana as feeling light and happy,jhana means different things for different people.

Right speech is harder.It's linked with underlying compulsions,habits that are hard to break.I do encounter people rarifying jhana or you don't need a visual nimitta and I mostly just ignore it.you can't convince hundreds of yogis that nimittas or jhanas are reserved for only sotapannas or arahants so rare,I've heard one person say it's extinct. Hundreds of yogis practice it on a regular basis its absolute nonsense.sure one day the knowledge will be lost again but it's not today.peoples mind streams are basically different. if you didn't practice a lot of samadhi in previous lives then it's hard for a nimitta to form for absorption in this ..So when people don't see one they think oh there is no such thing and go on to tell others that it doesn't exist.and then there are others who only need a few seconds for nimitta to form.it's all just about different mind streams.Whatever works for people if your Jhana is feeling light and happy then go for it,if you only need access concentration that's fine,you need full absorption that fine,material jhanas or immaterial jhanas you don't want to practice jhana you want to go straight to vippasanna and only use momentary concentration no problem.you do you. the only person that cares is ourselves.Its like going through a buffet and choosing what to eat.instead of choosing what suits us we bother ourselves with what ther people are choosing quoting endless "authority over the matter".Insight can be developed with any type of concentration.It's just going to take you ages without jhana but if your minds not inclined to it then it's fine.

Jhana is not easy,maybe for some it is,but really if you cultivate the right conditions (solitude,silence,continous attention to the object)it's going to hit saturation point and is inevitable.But only because people experience Jhana once in a silent retreat doesn't mean they can recreate it easily at home it all depends on the conditions we build around it to support this state which in lay life is hard to do.I have to add that if you just recently come out of jhana like perhaps for a few hours or days unti lt's effects wear off its impossible to break any precepts.you can try it it's very strange. like the universe is bending over backwards to stop it,have you heard the story of prince siddharta when his bowl floated against the stream it's like that.the mind state is incompatible with breaking the precepts so until it weakens or wears off you will naturally be removed from unwholesome actions.

so I don't think one can come out of Jhana and immediately start insulting people that mind state is too pure.but after it wears off and the hindrances pile up again, sure you can break any precepts,you can kill,you can harm having jhana form at random points of life is not going to magically turn people into a saint.If jhana is cultivated everyday or regularly then the mind is continuously purified and it will be more like a force of habit the mind.

But I absolutely agree with you about you can sit and get concentrated easily,feel gathered,composed,light,happy but have a harder time curbing harsh speech but what I don't agree is you cannot emerge from absorption after immersing into a nimitta and engage in harsh speech.try for yourself.it cannot be done.straight up.STEEL WALL.not for the next few hours or days this state is so far removed from your own thoughts that you can't even use it to form good or bad thoughts and need at least an hour to thaw back as the self has taken a back seat somewhere and it needs to integrate back together before it can start calling the shots again.🙏

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