Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:49 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:24 pm
The five main obstacles + the additional obstacles listed in MN 128 are the obstacles for the first jhana.
And here in the same sutta, the Buddha describes attaining samadhi, and then losing it:
While meditating …
So kho ahaṃ, anuruddhā … pe
…tassa mayhaṃ, anuruddhā,etadahosi:

‘Terror arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away.
‘chambhitattaṃ kho me udapādi, chambhitattādhikaraṇañca pana me samādhi cavi.

When immersion falls away, the light and vision of forms vanish.
Samādhimhi cute obhāso antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānaṃ.
Samadhi starts with first jhana
Without taking pleasure in being alone in seclusion, it’s impossible to learn the patterns of the mind (citassanimittam). Without learning the patterns of the mind, it’s impossible to fulfill right view. Without fulfilling right view, it’s impossible to fulfill right immersion. Without fulfilling right immersion, it’s impossible to give up the fetters. Without giving up the fetters, it’s impossible to realize extinguishment.
- AN 6.68

Seclusion -> nimittas -> Samadhi

Citassanimittan comes after Samatha and Abyaga nimitta, that means if the Buddha had immersion which fell away (MN 128) it means these hindrances arose AFTER attaining jhana. Probably subtle hindrances that arise in deeper jhanas.

It means there's different levels of hindrances that go from gross to subtle the deeper you go, like I said, each thorn can trigger hindrances, like fear from not breathing.

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:55 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:49 pm
And here in the same sutta, the Buddha describes attaining samadhi, and then losing it
It describes how the monks reached the concentration of access (the threshold of the first jhana or a very short entrance to it, accompanied by the appearance of nimitta), and then its loss, due to one or another obstacle in the mind. A person fully owns jhana when he can, at will, come in and out of it and remain in it for as long as he wishes.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:57 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:55 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:49 pm
And here in the same sutta, the Buddha describes attaining samadhi, and then losing it
It describes how the monks reached the concentration of access (the threshold of the first jhana or a very short entrance to it, accompanied by the appearance of nimitta), and then its loss, due to one or another obstacle in the mind. A person fully owns Jhana when he can, at will, come in and out of it and remain in it for as long as he wishes.
I don't see access concentration mentioned anywhere in that sutta.

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:00 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:57 pm
I don't see access concentration mentioned anywhere in that sutta.
Seeing light means access concentration.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:05 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:00 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:57 pm
I don't see access concentration mentioned anywhere in that sutta.
Seeing light means access concentration.
According to whom?

Seeing light comes later and stabilizes around fourth jhana, tranquility (passadhi) arises way before that.

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:30 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:05 pm
Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:00 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:57 pm
I don't see access concentration mentioned anywhere in that sutta.
Seeing light means access concentration.
According to whom?
This is indicated by many teachers, for example, Achan Li Dhammadharo.
Seeing light comes later and stabilizes around fourth jhana
According to whom? ;)
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:49 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:30 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:05 pm
Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:00 pm


Seeing light means access concentration.
According to whom?
This is indicated by many teachers, for example, Achan Li Dhammadharo.
If it's not in the suttas, then it's just speculation.
Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:30 pm
Seeing light comes later and stabilizes around fourth jhana
According to whom? ;)
According to the suttas.

We do know is that there are nimittas:

Samatha nimitta & Abyagga nimitta which arise together and lead to one pointedness and that Cittassa nimittaṃ comes after, which I already quoted first comes pleasure, then comes patterns of the mind (cittassa nimitta)

We know that the stock formula is:
"When he is gladdened, joy is born in him; being joyous in mind, his body becomes tranquil; his body being tranquil, he feels happiness; and the mind of him who is happy becomes concentrated.[9]"
"Conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite."

Piti -> Passadhi -> Sukha -> Jhanas -> Knowledge and Vision


And what fuels the arising of the awakening factor of immersion, or, when it has arisen, fully develops it?
Ko ca, bhikkhave, āhāro anuppannassa vā samādhisambojjhaṅgassa uppādāya, uppannassa vā samādhisambojjhaṅgassa: concentration as a constituent of enlightenment. (m.) bhāvanāya pāripūriyā?

There are things that are the foundation of serenity and freedom from distraction.
Atthi, bhikkhave, samathanimittaṃ abyagganimittaṃ.?

Frequent proper attention to them
Tattha yonisomanasikārabahulīkāro

fuels the arising of the awakening factor of immersion, or, when it has arisen, fully develops it.
ayamāhāro anuppannassa vā samādhisambojjhaṅgassa uppādāya, uppannassa vā samādhisambojjhaṅgassa bhāvanāya pāripūriyā.

Therefore light and vision comes after first jhana, the nimitta for first jhana is Samatha nimitta & Abyagga nimitta. Knowledge and Vision are abhinnas that come in fourth jhana.

First comes LIGHT then comes visions
“Mendicants, before my awakening—when I was still not awake but intent on awakening—I perceived light but did not see visions.
“pubbāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sambodhā anabhisambuddho bodhisattova samāno obhāsaññeva kho sañjānāmi, no ca rūpāni passāmi. (1)
- AN 8.64

MN 128 talks about losing light AND visions (4th jhana).

You only see dieties if you have fourth jhana
Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to both perceive light and see visions? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’

So after some time, living alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute, I perceived light and saw visions. But I didn’t associate with those deities, converse, or engage in discussion.

Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to perceive light and see visions; and associate with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:05 pm

https://suttacentral.net/sn41.6/en/sujato
Two things are helpful for attaining the cessation of perception and feeling: Saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpattiyā kho, gahapati, dve dhammā bahūpakārā— serenity and discernment.” samatho ca vipassanā cā”ti.
.
Perception and feeling are mental processes. saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.
cittasankhara has to be nirodhasamapattid by using samatha and vipassanā

it is heart release in other words i think. Which is achieved by one of the 3 liberations(vimokkhas)

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/n/nimitta
I.The 3 liberations are:1.the conditionless (or signless) liberation (animitta -v.),2.the desireless liberation (apanihita-v.),3.the emptiness (or void) liberation (suññatā-v.).They are also called 'the triple gateway to liberation' (vimokkha-mukha; Vis.M.XXI,66ff),as they are three different approaches to the paths of holiness.- See visuddhi VI,8.Cf.Vis XXI,6ff,121ff; Pts.M.II.Vimokkha-kathā.
sutta what seem corresponds with the above
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.7/en/sujato
“Householder, the limitless heart’s release, and the heart’s release through nothingness, and the heart’s release through emptiness, and the signless heart’s release: do these things differ in both meaning and phrasing? Or do they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing?”
“yā cāyaṃ, gahapati, appamāṇā cetovimutti, yā ca ākiñcaññā cetovimutti, yā ca suññatā cetovimutti, yā ca animittā cetovimutti, ime dhammā nānatthā nānābyañjanā udāhu ekatthā byañjanameva nānan”ti?
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.6/en/sujato
“But sir, when a mendicant has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, how many kinds of contact do they experience?” “saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpattiyā vuṭṭhitaṃ pana, bhante, bhikkhuṃ kati phassā phusanti”?

“They experience three kinds of contact: “Saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpattiyā vuṭṭhitaṃ kho, gahapati, bhikkhuṃ tayo phassā phusanti— emptiness, signless, and undirected contacts.” suññato phasso, animitto phasso, appaṇihito phasso”ti.
after cessation of perception and feeling there will come 3 contacts.

suññata
animitta
appanihita

you get heart relased but thre still will come three contacts what in previous stage is one of the release. And after that there will be Jhanas(if read on the Sutta mn 44) what are related to the belly and lower abdomen with sensual centers whilst the samatha and vipassanā done for to cease citta sankhara are in the head and the heart release is heart.
Last edited by auto on Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:11 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:49 pm
According to the suttas.

We do know is that there are nimittas:

Samatha nimitta & Abyagga nimitta which arise together and lead to one pointedness and that Cittassa nimittaṃ comes after, which I already quoted first comes pleasure, then comes patterns of the mind (cittassa nimitta)
Which suttas speak of these nimittas?
You only see dieties if you have fourth jhana
I did not say anything about the devas, it was only about the light (nimitta) that appears at the entrance to the first jhana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:19 pm

https://suttacentral.net/sn41.7/en/sujato
Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs.
Rāgo kho, bhante, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo.
nimitta isn't 'something' per se.

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:27 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:19 pm
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.7/en/sujato
Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs.
Rāgo kho, bhante, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo.
nimitta isn't 'something' per se.
Yes, nimitta is a sign or a feature of something. In the context of concentration meditation, nimitta in the form of light is a sign of approaching the first jhana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:34 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:11 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:49 pm
According to the suttas.

We do know is that there are nimittas:

Samatha nimitta & Abyagga nimitta which arise together and lead to one pointedness and that Cittassa nimittaṃ comes after, which I already quoted first comes pleasure, then comes patterns of the mind (cittassa nimitta)
Which suttas speak of these nimittas?
You only see dieties if you have fourth jhana
I did not say anything about the devas, it was only about the light (nimitta) that appears at the entrance to the first jhana.
MN 128 speaks about Light AND Vision (vision is an abhinna that arises in 4th jhana).

Did you not see the sutta I quoted talking about only seeing Light and not Vision?

I quoted a sutta already that talks about those nimittas. Reread my post.
Last edited by budo on Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:27 pm
auto wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:19 pm
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.7/en/sujato
Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs.
Rāgo kho, bhante, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo.
nimitta isn't 'something' per se.
Yes, nimitta is a sign or a feature of something. In the context of concentration meditation, nimitta in the form of light is a sign of approaching the first jhana.
but if you concentrate on idk stone, you look at it. There won't nothing happen, the signs won't arise that way by just looking at. So what are the reasons the sign appear?

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:45 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:34 pm
MN 128 speaks about Light AND Vision (vision is an abhinna that arises in 4th jhana).

Did you not see the sutta I quoted talking about only seeing Light and not Vision?
The vision of light and form is possible even before the first jhana is reached, as is the attainment of some iddhi. In the fourth jhana, the faculties of divine sight and divine hearing (if desired, and the application of effort) is brought to perfection, and then there is the ability to come into contact with deities, etc., as described in AN 8.64. MN 128 says only that the visions of light and form began to appear, but disappeared because of obstacles (which are obstacles to entering the first jhana).
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:51 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pm
idk stone
I do not understand. What it is?
So what are the reasons the sign appear?
A certain level (very exalted, superhuman) of detachment from the defilements that chain the mind to kama-loka.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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