Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot who posted on this thread by breaking thru the firewall, i.e. blocking walls (viruses can do that and they do harm) asked  
If so, why are you stilling posting about DooDoot.
Answer: because you broke thru the wall, and you are posting on this thread, and those who read the thread, can read you.
Pl create your own thread if you want to continue your teachings, but not at Pulsar's expense. DooDoot wrote
Ven. Sujato was quoted accurately and demonstrated the error of the idea: "all awareness is conditioned"
Again you are quoting something that I did not find on the video, plus pl. clarify to my readers. 
When Ven Sujato said "all awareness is conditioned" was he referring to the awareness that Dinsdale and I were talking i.e. subject under discussion.
Did he say "Awareness of the Arahant' is conditioned? By taking things out of context, one can slander people. It is called wrong speech by the Buddha. it is not BuddhaDhamma we are studying, but ChaosDhamma. Pl do not do this to Buddhas teaching. It is misrepresenting the teaching of the Tathagata, which you have a track record of doing. On my thread on Misconception on Jhana... you asked once that the thread be closed because "Jhana is impossible" for the layman. Buddha has never said "To practice Samma samadhi, one has to be a monastic" An undisciplined ill informed monastic can be a disservice to the sasana. A well informed, disciplined layman can be of service to the Sasana. Plus you also said at Buddhadasa's monastety no one could practice Jhana, and you belong to that sub tradition. You are ill informed of Buddha's teachings.
With love, pl go away my dear DooDoot. Leave this thread in peace.
PS Pl. return only if you have an idea what Samma Samadhi means,
PSS I notice you edited your comment... I can answer the edited version (it is about Yamaka sutta), but it will consume a chunk of my time.
If anybody else on the forum wants to bring it up i.e.Yamaka sutta, I shall answer. I prefer not to continue this engagement with you, so leave me in peace. :candle:

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Aloka
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Re: Jhana

Post by Aloka »

Pulsar wrote: DooDoot who posted on this thread by breaking thru the firewall, i.e. blocking walls (viruses can do that and they do harm)


:thinking:...... :shrug:...... :rolleye:



.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:30 am
Confusedlayman wrote....
You subscribe to a jhanic way other than Samma Samadhi. This thread is limited to the 8-fold path.
Your comments do not apply .. plus what you say here shows, you did not understand my comment before last, which refers to the conversation between Sariputta and Mahakottithata.
Read that sutta several times, perhaps something will sink in.
With love :candle:
awareness or watch observer in background.. what is ur view on that?
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Confused asked, 
awareness or watch observer in background.. what is ur view on that?
An Arahant would reply that one has left all views behind... but in order to make sense to one who is locked within the world of aggregates, think of it as for the Arahant the observer is no more. However in quite a bit of suttas,  it is communicated as if there is an existing observer. Your misunderstanding might arise due to that. It is these language issues ....
The observer exists for the one with a consciousness.
Arahant has got rid of 'pesky consciousness" but he is not unconscious, a process is going on as long as others can see his body. One can say, as he finally dropped the conceit of self,
the observer vanished.
For you to make sense, since you understand only through language, perhaps think of it as a similar process as yours ...but it is really not happening, the way you think. A process goes on as long as the body of Arahant is alive, but all his/her thoughts do not lead to a new existence of feelings or a new becoming of perceptions.
Process is freed of becoming.
It is a mystery to you, since you cannot enter that world. In a way one could briefly, if you truly practiced Buddhist jhana in the way that meditation
empties all pesky consciousness
by working via MN 18 and MN 38 etc...long story. Many stumble here, 'cause they have too many rigid views.
But the way Confused meditates using Arupas, which is a method of trapping the consciousness in the Arupa worlds, an experience as calming or endearing as it is, does not release the consciousness.
Throughout that Arupa practice, the observer sits there watching.
That observer is trapped in Brahma worlds. As insanely glorious as they are, Pulsar is not interested in that experience. Decapitation of the observer is the buddhist goal.
You amaze me at times. You ask the right questions, you see and not see, and stumble. That is fine, Keep on pulling yourself up every time you stumble. 
With love  :candle:

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:13 pm
....
confusedlayman wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 10:08 am
awareness or watch observer in background..
Sākṣī appears to be the word for "awareness" Spiny Norman & ConfusedLayMan are referring to. :tongue: :thinking:
In Hindu philosophy , Sakshi (Sanskrit: साक्षी or शाक्षी), also Sākṣī or Shakshi, "witness," refers to the 'Pure Awareness' that witnesses the world but does not get affected or involved. Sakshi is beyond time, space and the triad of experiencer, experiencing and experienced; sakshi witnesses all thoughts, words and deeds without interfering with them or being affected by them, other than sakshi there is nothing else in the entire universe.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Confused wrote
awareness or watch observer in background.. what is your view on that?
To clarify further, do not think I am saying that what you call observer is what is called X by Greeks, Y in Norse Mythology, or Z by the Hindus. There was no Buddha other than SammaSambuddha, he was born in a kingdom at the Foothills of Himalayas. The discussion here is based on the claim that only he was enlightened, not the Hindus, not the Greeks not any other person with fabulous vision.
With that in mind, when Moggallana was asked in SN 44.7 "Why do the others answer when asked the difficult questions regarding the Arahant or Buddha but not you", he stated that
"others answer because of identification with the sense faculties the Arahant lacks this identification and does not"
In SN 44.8 Moggallana repeats
these questions are answered by those who see the five aggregates in terms of self (as self. or self possessing them, or the aggregates in the self or self in the aggregates)
SN 44.3
Questions about the Tathagata/Arahant do not apply to a Tataghata who is beyond the the five aggregates
In original or primitive Buddhism word Tathagata was applied to the Arahant (until the Mahayanists arrived, rest is history)
To get back to my original dumbed down version of exchange between Mahakotttitha and Sariputta, these further clarify why Sariputta said
"For Christ's sake shut up, one cannot talk about the Arahant that is gone beyond speech, or gone beyond identification with the sense bases"
PS Also when we at Dhamma Wheel in a chat group, try to ask who is the
'observer in the background' or 'witness hovering' or 'Insane awareness' we get in trouble.
Pay attention without bringing in examples from the Holy Bible, as others may try to do, in order to confuse you.
You are a sensible person, even though you call yourself confusedlayman. In a way we are all confused but to varying degrees, until we become the Arahant.
I bow to that Sammasambuddha who or which the Hindus identified an an appendage of Krishna, when they were dumbfounded by the brilliance of Tathagata, newly arisen. Pl do not think that the Hindus had an answer either. When the Tathagata kept silence, no one could improve on that
"profound silence"
by speech.

The day looks glorious. Have a good one 🥀🌼🌻

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

one who is influenced by Upanisad teachings, might have a hard time getting their head around Buddha's teachings. Buddha practically rejects all their hifalutin ideologies. One who is under the spell of  Upanisad teachings, a spell hard to break...believes in a witness.
In Shvetashvatata Upanisads, we find a reference to  "the witness" or Saksi as follows. 
The same deity remains hidden in all beings. He is the supervisor of actions, living in all beings. He is the witness.
An all pervasive glorified self asserting itself in all beings? the witness! something that Buddha rejected from day one, the steady self? There is no steady self.
It is taboo in his teaching. Anatta? Dukkha? 
One who is influenced by Buddha knows that his awakening had nothing to do with formless meditations, something he dismissed, time with his first teachers, a time fruitlessly spent, a childhood memory rescued Siddhartha. MN 36
Those who are stuck on the upanishad meditations, find it impossible to discern the status of a person released from the six sense bases. 
An arahant's status is absolved of all thought construction
Believers of a witness, or saksi are attracted to formless meditations, just like a calf when removed from its mother keeps returning to its mother, they keep returning to "the witness"
Can freedom from papanca or view formation be achieved via formless meditations? Can these help in Dhammavicaya, 2nd factor of 7 enlightenment factors.
Samma sati and Samma Samadhi culminates in the 7 Bojjhangas.
Sakshi  Sākṣī or Shakshi or that "Pure Awareness" falls under conceptual constructions or Papanca.
With love 💐

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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

If someone can observe whats coming and whats going without trying to control it (both within body and outside), then u will feel weightless and it is condusive to initiate jhana moemnts.
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Confusedlayman wrote
u will feel weightless and it is condusive to initiate jhana moments.
I love the phrase weightlessness, the pleasurable feelings of jhanic journeys, when the weight of thought is left behind. With love :candle:

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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:12 pm
one who is influenced by Upanisad teachings, might have a hard time getting their head around Buddha's teachings. Buddha practically rejects all their hifalutin ideologies. One who is under the spell of  Upanisad teachings, a spell hard to break...believes in a witness.
In Shvetashvatata Upanisads, we find a reference to  "the witness" or Saksi as follows. 
The same deity remains hidden in all beings. He is the supervisor of actions, living in all beings. He is the witness.
An all pervasive glorified self asserting itself in all beings? the witness! something that Buddha rejected from day one, the steady self? There is no steady self.
It is taboo in his teaching. Anatta? Dukkha? 
One who is influenced by Buddha knows that his awakening had nothing to do with formless meditations, something he dismissed, time with his first teachers, a time fruitlessly spent, a childhood memory rescued Siddhartha. MN 36
Those who are stuck on the upanishad meditations, find it impossible to discern the status of a person released from the six sense bases. 
An arahant's status is absolved of all thought construction
Believers of a witness, or saksi are attracted to formless meditations, just like a calf when removed from its mother keeps returning to its mother, they keep returning to "the witness"
Can freedom from papanca or view formation be achieved via formless meditations? Can these help in Dhammavicaya, 2nd factor of 7 enlightenment factors.
Samma sati and Samma Samadhi culminates in the 7 Bojjhangas.
Sakshi  Sākṣī or Shakshi or that "Pure Awareness" falls under conceptual constructions or Papanca.
With love 💐
Pulsar says
Sakshi  Sākṣī or Shakshi or that "Pure Awareness" falls under conceptual constructions or Papanca.
thanks. this cleared my thinking obstruction...
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Confusedlayman wrote
thanks. this cleared my thinking obstruction.
Sometimes you clear my obstructions. I love you dear Confusedlayman.
I've been thinking of your question on Anathapindika's daughter on another thread. I will respond
sometime there when I have cleared my head. You really read the suttas, I'm in awe.
Be well! :candle:

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:12 pm
one who is influenced by Upanisad teachings, might have a hard time getting their head around Buddha's teachings. Buddha practically rejects all their hifalutin ideologies. One who is under the spell of  Upanisad teachings, a spell hard to break...believes in a witness.
You don't need read Upanishads to know there is a witness,

Claims for witness state can be tested out by anyone on spot without any knowledge other than relaying on mundane understanding what witnessing is and being able to implement it, demonstrate it. Witnessing is imputed term to describe a description free state - so if you not agree with the term 'witness' then describe that state better, no?
Pulsar wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:12 pm
An all pervasive glorified self asserting itself in all beings? the witness! something that Buddha rejected from day one, the steady self? There is no steady self.
It is taboo in his teaching. Anatta? Dukkha?
One who is influenced by Buddha knows that his awakening had nothing to do with formless meditations, something he dismissed, time with his first teachers, a time fruitlessly spent, a childhood memory rescued Siddhartha. MN 36
Are you writing off cittasankharas before attaining to the cessation of perception - because you read in a Sutta that they are not going to give you supreme awakening? hmm, then you proceed on to the vaci and kayasankhara, those must be then the correct ones? Can you tell on what basis you make this choice?
Pulsar wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:12 pm
Those who are stuck on the upanishad meditations, find it impossible to discern the status of a person released from the six sense bases.
You know because you gave up on cittasankharas and that gives you the understanding equal to 'been there done that'?
Pulsar wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:12 pm
Believers of a witness, or saksi are attracted to formless meditations, just like a calf when removed from its mother keeps returning to its mother, they keep returning to "the witness"
Can freedom from papanca or view formation be achieved via formless meditations? Can these help in Dhammavicaya, 2nd factor of 7 enlightenment factors.
Samma sati and Samma Samadhi culminates in the 7 Bojjhangas.
wish you were more knowledgeable about the elixir fields(tan tien's): belly, chest, head.

the problems you think are so huge and aren't addressed in mediation related materials never before? I hope you see its what the mediation books mostly are about, that you wouldn't get bogged down to some measly attainments.

With hate, :redherring:

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

  • You are blocked Auto.
Firewall malfunction?
Auto wrote
"With hate, :redherring:"

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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 12:04 pm
Confusedlayman wrote
thanks. this cleared my thinking obstruction.
Sometimes you clear my obstructions. I love you dear Confusedlayman.
I've been thinking of your question on Anathapindika's daughter on another thread. I will respond
sometime there when I have cleared my head. You really read the suttas, I'm in awe.
Be well! :candle:
Thanks pulsar. Yes take ur time. and also I do read suttas as its my inspiration. its the only thing i read apart from my job rejection email document haha
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Confusedlayman wrote
Thanks pulsar. Yes take ur time. and also I do read suttas as its my inspiration.
It is pretty much clear from your comments, that you read the suttas. Once you wrote about "100 beatings in the morning, 100 beatings midday and 100 beatings in the night". Son's flesh is one sutta where it appears, If you have mastered that, that is all you need to master. Entire doctrine, in that very short sutta. But of course this depends on the beholder.
A brief question, your comment regarding Anathapindika's child, the youngest,
that she was envious of her happily married two older sisters, did you read that in a sutta or commentary?

I have read in the Pali canon that just before her death she called her Dad "My little brother"
and her Dad thought she was delirious before death.
Anathapindika reported this to Buddha, and Buddha corrected him, it was not because she was delirious but it was because she was more advanced than her Dad spiritually. She died young, she might have been sickly, that might have been the reason she did not marry?
Envy or jealousy can enter the non-Arahant mind briefly. Both her married sisters were apparently Sotapannas, I am not sure whether that info is in the suttas or a commentary.
Have a beautiful Sunday dear Confusedlayman!
PS I hope you continue to inspire us with your
sutta knowledge. :candle:

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