Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:02 pm
"Like the moon" Then the Blessed one waved his hand in the space and said
"Bhikkhus, just as this hand does not get caught in space, is not held fast by it, is not bound by it, so when a bhikkhu approaches families his mind does not get caught..."
An excerpt from Kassapasamyutta. SN 16.2
Above is a rare gesture by the Buddha, this gesture inspired me to no end. You can read the rest of the sutta for context. As for me it helps me understand the 4th jhana, the geniune meditator, does not allow impinging thoughts (approaching families) to distract him, a state of impurtability recurrent in the 4th Buddhist jhana.

I find Buddha's words are magical like this, even his hand gesture. 

Dear Confusedlayman: Perhaps you should post your queat on a new thread. I do not think there has been any research done on the 4 buddhist jhanas by , or that meditators have succumbed themselves to such experimentation.
OP meant this thread exclusively 4 buddhist jhanas, and related material, in a soteriological sense.
With love :candle:
Ok. No prob its not importsnt question.
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Moon reflects in the river, for when one standing on river's bank, a visual contact is made.
The image that appears at the seat of the eye consciousness is like this, a reflection. Nama Rupa is a reality, the embodiment is essential for Nama to function. Yet when it comes to buddhist meditation, rupa is to be ignored to facilitate the activity. Four jhanas were called Arupas, in primitive buddhism.i.e. until the other influences appeared. Thankfully that entry, did not find its way into 8fp,
we have Tathagata's pure teaching here, in Samma Samadhi
I bow to those faithful transmissions of Dhamma, a saving grace.
How does Phassa or contact manifest?
When one looks at a Hickory, it is really not the tree one sees, but its image falling on eye awareness. One with cataracts sees the tree hazily, one with 20/20 sees the details, with silvery demarcations, peeling bark, crawling caterpillar etc.
Understanding of right Contact/Phassa is essential for Buddhist meditation. 
  • The trio contact leading to feeling leading to conception of thought, if not visualized rightly, makes the rest of the process futile
Right meditation builds on a solid foundation of DO, the first target is 'contact', This is where dismantling of consciousness begins, taking apart the "I".
Think of vocal sounds, or images reflected in a body of water
Both have multiple causes which produce them. Sounds are produced by reason of lips, teeth, tongue, palate, wind pipe etc, Images are created by reason of sunlight or moonlight falling on tree limbs.
The voice one hears is sound resonating, imagine an echo, in everyday life, the detection of a voice is due to subtle echoes of that voice. The point is that sensory ayatanas pick up on such contacts. Hence contact is purely mental. 
Phassa is not due to bumping into solid objects, but the bumping or contact is with reflections seen or echoes heard.
In meditation contact is where, dismantling begins
In Samma Sati, it starts at body level, contact (phassa), progressing onto feeling (Vedana), conception (sanna) and dhammas.
In the Four buddhist jhanas (Samma samadhi) the meditator moves away from contact during first jhana, connections with sensory world are cut off.
With love :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Life of pleasure, states of consciousness, orientating the mind towards a certain attitude, a view of sorts, developing the raft of Samma Samadhi, hatchet, twine, brush, there is something to be said for the buoyancy of the logs selected, a meditator's choice in gathering sticks and twine. 
A  talk by Ven. Sujato caught my attention, published long ago. I missed it, but better late than ever. If you are interested pl. search
"Life of pleasure, (jhana)"
on youtube, right there you find it, on the Dhammanet channel. It is  precious. At 4.15 of the video, around the beginning, Sujato nudges,
"folks argue about jhana endlessly, but that is not the path to jhana" When one  gives up one's flawed views of jhana, jhana finds you. 
He acknowledges that there is more peripheral stuff,
he is referriing to the razzmatazz of so called Arupa Sampatthis, exotic states, inconsequential states. He calls it the bling, the spinning rims and the chrome of the chariot. The genuine axle of the chariot of Dhamma is Samma Samadhi i.e. 4 buddhist jhanas. SN 45.4 "The Divine Vehicle"
He presents the jhanas with great clarity. It is sprinkled with his typical sense of humor, that makes his talks endurable. He does not come across as a know it all, yet it appears he knows just what needs to be known, "A handful of leaves" it resonates of.
  • "the wheels of the dhamma will fall off the chariot without the 4 jhanas", he claims

Sujato is my kind of guy. Did Buddha teach jhana to make you feel like an idiot? jokingly.
  • Jhana is a very powerful state of clarity. It is not something you get. It is an illumination. Jhana is the outcome of the process of letting go
Root of the word jhana comes from Rigveda, he explains, 
"Divine poetic inspiration" "divinely inspired awakening" light coming into mind, night wearing off, Siddhartha waking up with the dawn.
Around 12 .56 Sujato warns the listener
  • "Don't do donkey jhana" a reference to Sandha sutta, An 11.10
  • Jhana is the illumination of the mind that flows through when the poet feels possessed by a certain sort of divinity
Finally it stuck me
"this ability of Sujato to communicate the buddhist jhanas in this disarming fashion"
I bow to Ven Sujato, had I not participated in DW, I would have not realized the critical role played by Sujato in spreading Buddha's word.
The comment is based on the first 1/4th of the presentation. I've yet to inhale the rest.
It is gloomy here, hopefully sun will emerge for all of us...the light bringer.
Until then light of a candle :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Continuing with life's grand pleasures, it reminds me of a sutta in Anguttara, where Buddha says Jhana is Tathagata's luxury bedding, simple pleasures of the Arahant! 
back to the video, Sujato reiterates
'Jhana is not something you get'
it is a process of forsaking states of defilement, states of obstruction, and distortion that defile the mind. 
At 13.28 of the talk, he says buddha did not give details of Jhana, as commentaries do, he did not fuss over details. Naturally! those who get caught up in details, remain caught.
How do you respond to feelings of rapture, that matures to sukha? Sujato asks,
"sukha is a deep sense of pleasure, a grounding-ness"
The purpose of Metta, or Buddhanussati: these ease one's entry into spiritual quiet. Likewise breath meditation facilitates one's entrance to tranquility, in a more profound sense. One must have joy in meditatio Buddha says,
"Terrible eh!... stuff buddha asked you to do" jokingly. One's right to pursue happiness, he mentions American constitution, life and liberty negotiable????
I am beginning to like Sujato very much, but in jhana, happiness pursues you... Why?
The Four Noble truth manifests,
  • craving and attachment drop like dewdrops on the blades of grass, as the sun climbs, hindrances drop, when suffering ends it is like a release from prison
Sujato gives life to the metaphors of Samannapahala, the most beautiful sutta.
A reference to King Ajatasattu's query "Is there a reward to spiritual life?"
Rather than think of right method of jhana, Sujato says, think of what makes you happy, genuinely wholesomely happy. 
Sukha or pleasure is virtually a synonym for jhana
Sujato's light hearted approach, easing the way of the layman towards a profound activity, not getting caught up in lang.
At times jhana just happens
Important thing is ask, what gives you pleasure, don't waste your time finding the perfect teacher, what you did in a previous life??
It matters not Kajjaniya wrote. Remember abhisankharoti?
Back to Sujato 
ayu vannno sukkam balam
he quotes DP 109. There is the most fascinating story behind this verse.
To make it short, 
iddhipadas, balam is power or strength to get rid of defilements
Buddha was criticized by his detractors,
"Your mind is addicted to life's pleasures, so are your followers"
"yep" Buddha responds, I guess it is called the "release from suffering". Don't think of jhanas as states far away, do not think of it as one more hassle.
When King Ajatasattu inquires... "In worldly life folks engage in various crafts, earn a living, have families, these fetch them happiness" "What makes the ascetic happy? Buddha responds
"each stage of development of spiritual path yields a blameless happiness, a pure happiness, that deepen with each new stage"
Rather than think of jhana as one more
"pain in the ass" that can be skipped to save time
think of it as something that brings pleasure, of a wholesome genuine sort. 
PS the comment is a continuation of the one begun yesterday on Sujato's "Life of Pleasure (Jhana)" The talk is at, or around 20.00, time to pause the tape and meditate on what Sujato has said so far.
PSS with love :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Quarantine, and COVID-19, in a way jhana is a process of quarantining the mind,
until the residues of "I" disappears. Once "I" has vanished who on earth can the virus's receptors latch on to?
Sticky knobs on viral surface, have an affinity for the victim's cell surface receptors allowing virus to penetrate the cell, to use human DNA apparatus as a factory to do its dirty work, kill the victim.
I think of the unsavoury thoughts that gain entry to our minds, and kill our sila, samadhi or panna, like this, this process of relentless multiplication, abhisankharoti
Think of contact, of Paticca samuppada, how it gives rise to endless mental proliferation MN 18.
Everything that happens in life reminds me of Buddha
...a battle results...
Taking a lesson from Covid-19 an excerpt from https://qz.com/1822554/how-the-coronavi ... -invasion/
So what is it about this particular virus—SARS-CoV-2—that makes it act this way?
Scientists are beginning to understand those stealthy transmission dynamics at a biological level.
(stealthy transmission of a polluting thought:my take)
All viruses are intracellular parasites. Their only mission in life, if you can call it that, is to use the mechanisms of human cells to make copies of themselves. The tricky task is finding a way into the cells where they can replicate. The novel coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, isn’t particularly good at that. Research so far suggests that it sneaks in
through a single cellular door: a membrane protein called ACE2

Relating this to Buddha's teaching one might say, for the defilement of the mind, all that is required is one unguarded moment, that sneaky door, the deathly entrance!
Blocking the sneaky entry ways is what Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi or 4 buddhist jhanas accomplish, if you get my drift.
With love  :candle:

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:35 am
Quarantine, and COVID-19, in a way jhana is a process of quarantining the mind,
until the residues of "I" disappears. Once "I" has vanished who on earth can the virus's receptors latch on to?
when 'I' vanishes?
https://suttacentral.net/sn2.14/en/sujato wrote: What kind of person lives on after transcending suffering? Kathaṃvidho dukkhamaticca iriyati,
A person who bears their final body,
https://suttacentral.net/sn2.14/en/sujato wrote:“A person who is ethical, wise, self-developed, “Yo sīlavā paññavā bhāvitatto,
becomes immersed in samādhi, loving absorption, mindful, Samāhito jhānarato satīmā;
who’s gotten rid of and given up all sorrows, Sabbassa sokā vigatā pahīnā,
with defilements ended, they bear their final body. Khīṇāsavo antimadehadhārī.
Is trying to getting rid of the 'I' even reasonable or possible when you still have this reincarnation body(pileup ,heap)? it seem the 'self' what you experience rises in dependence on the body, do you see it and then understand that after this body is gone the sense of self can be much different?

So in that sense the self experience is not eternal it will be much different after body breaks up. Aren't it a wonderland and makes you want to further the discipline to make much progress as possible before body breaks up?

Here some more things you have said, I would like to comment on,
Pulsar wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:34 pm
In Samma Sati, it starts at body level, contact (phassa), progressing onto feeling (Vedana), conception (sanna) and dhammas.
In the Four buddhist jhanas (Samma samadhi) the meditator moves away from contact during first jhana, connections with sensory world are cut off.
With love :candle:
..
https://suttacentral.net/sn2.15/en/sujato wrote: Someone who desists from sensual perception, Virato kāmasaññāya,
has moved past the fetter of form, rūpasaṃyojanātigo;
and has finished with relishing and greed Nandīrāgaparikkhīṇo,
does not sink in the deep.” so gambhīre na sīdatī”ti.
Sensual perception? what is that.. If you have desire to grab a cookie, first notice if it isn't a sensual perception there, it is a flood what is hard to not sink in.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Potthapada sutta DN 9 comes to mind....
Long time ago I described to a friend, when I was confronted on the subject of "Self"
as taught by Buddha, my friend was firmly rooted in the notion of "self" rigidly.
I used an idea found in the instructions to Potthapada.
Many years later I cannot do any better than Buddha did.
My response to the friend, excerpt from DN 9
Buddha responded
"It is hard to explain to someone of a foreign tradition"
...when Potthapada said
I find all this so very hard to comprehend, it's confounding my belief systems;
but his friend Citta the son of the elephant trainer, who was not a foreigner, on hearing the Buddha retreated into seclusion, unwearying, zealous and resolute, in a short time attained to that state where nothing further had to be done;
It is all too obvious when reading the sutta, that Citta engaged in the jhanas, during the seclusion.
Another excerpt from Potthapada.
"He guards the sense doors, etc."
Having reached the first jhana, he remains in it. And whatever sensations of lust that he previously had disappaer.
At that time there is present a true but subtle sense perception of delight and happiness
May we all experience that 'true but subtle perception of delight and happiness'. with love :candle:

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:07 pm
Potthapada sutta DN 9 comes to mind....
Long time ago I described to a friend, when I was confronted on the subject of "Self"
as taught by Buddha, my friend was firmly rooted in the notion of "self" rigidly.
I used an idea found in the instructions to Potthapada.
Many years later I cannot do any better than Buddha did.
My response to the friend, excerpt from DN 9
Buddha responded
"It is hard to explain to someone of a foreign tradition"
...when Potthapada said
I find all this so very hard to comprehend, it's confounding my belief systems;
but his friend Citta the son of the elephant trainer, who was not a foreigner, on hearing the Buddha retreated into seclusion, unwearying, zealous and resolute, in a short time attained to that state where nothing further had to be done;
It is all too obvious when reading the sutta, that Citta engaged in the jhanas, during the seclusion.
Another excerpt from Potthapada.
"He guards the sense doors, etc."
Having reached the first jhana, he remains in it. And whatever sensations of lust that he previously had disappaer.
At that time there is present a true but subtle sense perception of delight and happiness
May we all experience that 'true but subtle perception of delight and happiness'. with love :candle:
are you paraphrasing? since i'm not able to find the quotes you quoted.
-
and if your goal is to show this way how there is no self then I think you need make sure not to sound like haven't read suttas what mention afflicting perception what beset when being in 1st jhana not to mention how you get there(an9.41). And dn9 talks about 1-8, suddenly you accept them when you have a change to taunt someone?

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

"A village pig bathed in perfumed water, garlanded and laid on the best bed, will still return
to the dunghill. In the same way Potthapada still returns to the idea of self"
 From the foot notes to Potthapada. 'The Long Discourses of the Buddha'
When Potthapada asks
Lord, is perception a person's self or is perception one thing, and self another?
Tathagata after, couple more attempts, admits
Potthapada it is difficult for one of different views, a different faith, under
different influences, with different pursuits, and a different training to know whether these are two different things or not.

later in the sutta,  
Then as the wanderers as soon as the Lord had left, reproached, sneered, and jeered, at Potthapada from all sides, saying whatever the ascetic Gotama says, Potthapada agrees with him. So it is Lord, so it is Well Farer!' We don't understand a word of the ascetic Gotama's whole discourse...
Potthapada replied
"I don't understand either ....but the ascetic Gotama teaches a true and real way of practice which is consonant with Dhamma and grounded in Dhamma. And why should not a man like me express approval of such a true and real practice, so well taught by the ascetic Gotama?"
Be well! :candle:

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:13 am
"A village pig bathed in perfumed water, garlanded and laid on the best bed, will still return
to the dunghill. In the same way Potthapada still returns to the idea of self"
 From the foot notes to Potthapada. 'The Long Discourses of the Buddha'
When Potthapada asks
Lord, is perception a person's self or is perception one thing, and self another?
Tathagata after, couple more attempts, admits
Potthapada it is difficult for one of different views, a different faith, under different influences, with different pursuits, and different pursuits  and a different  training  to know whether these are two different things or not

later in the sutta,  
Then as the wanderers as soon as the Lord had left, reproached, sneered, and jeered, at Potthapada from all sides, saying whatever the ascetic Gotama says, Potthapada agrees with him. So it is Lord, so it is Well Farer!' We don't understand a word of the ascetic Gotama's whole discourse...
Potthapada replied
"I don't understand either ....but the ascetic Gotama teaches a true and real way of practice which is consonant with Dhamma and grounded in Dhamma. And why should not a man like me express approval of such a true and real practice, so well taught by the ascetic Gotama?"
Be well! :candle:
you should cite the source and translator.
So that I could find where in the Sutta these are taken to read in the context. I know the parts what you refer in this post, but not the part what you wrote about jhana in your post before
--
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.09.0.than.html wrote: "Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. As he remains at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, 'Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?' [3] So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases [4] and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation. This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert [5] step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception.
The quote above, you can see even in the peak of perception one is percipient of himself and thinking. After ultimate cessation of perception, I assume, one can understand that I am not perception.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.09.0.than.html wrote:"Potthapada, perception arises first, and knowledge after. And the arising of knowledge comes from the arising of perception. One discerns, 'It's in dependence on this [7] that my knowledge has arisen.' Through this line of reasoning one can realize how perception arises first, and knowledge after, and how the arising of knowledge comes from the arising of perception."
this above quote, i think, the knowledge what arises is "I am percipient", it arises in dependence of perception.

That said you can also see when you think self referential thought you can become aware of your self, that is also knowledge, what this time arises dependent on self referential thought.
--
In your case of vanishing the self, I afraid you don't take dependence into consideration when you state it.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

🥀  on the topic of life's grand pleasures, Sujato continues, "Buddha gave his own spin to jhana",  At around 30.34 of the video "Life of Pleasure (Jhana)" he says Samadhi is coalescence of the mind, for instance vitaka vicara is the development and purification of an ordinary state of mind.
In first jhana, mind is freed of hindrances, ordinary vitaka vicara is transformed into extraordinary vitaka, vicara
Vitaka, vicara, sukha, piti, ekaggata, all of these are qualities we  have in everyday life, but in Jhana they become  purified. 
Iddhipada comes into play. In Jhana mind is engaged in a process of application. It is not roaming,  It is in seclusion. In many suttas Buddha says "Bhikkhus find a hut, go do Jhana" Thanissaro and Sujato have repeatedly stressed this point. Sujato says the Pali word used by Buddha is jhana, which many times is translated as meditation. But the accurate translation is jhana. Samma Samadhi, of 8fp is a reference to the 4 jhanas,
jhanic mind is refined, and exalted
 
In this video, Sujato describes
vitaka, vicara using breath as a simile, Vitaka brings mind to breath, it is not thinking of breath, but bringing attention to breath. In vicara it settles, breath quietens becomes established. When this happens, tendency of mind to stray wanes

At around 33.43 of the video...
Mind is not static, it is designed to be on the move for sake of survival, just like others of animal kingdom. Function of jhana is to restrain mind, to discipline mind to bring it to an exalted state.
Will continue with the last part of the video later.
With love :candle:
PS the comment is the continuation of Sujato's video, which I began on 3/29/20 and continued on 3/30/20. For anyone not familiar with jhanas, Sujato offers excellent instructions, on how to get on with jhanas, "to find a hut, and go do jhanas" reportedly this is what the Buddha said....

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

🥀  concluding remarks on Sujato's instructions on jhana. Sujato hilights metaphors from DN2,
1st jhana: kneading, stroking, coaxing bath powder into a gelatinous mass,  
the gathering of  thought, a process in which Piti or Rapture is born. Piti arrives because one lets go of coarser forms of suffering. Mind gains a  buoyancy with further concentration
The second jhana:
Rapture is that of  a cool forest pool, contained, no inflows. At its base, an uprising, a saltation of an unusual joy. Rapture keeps one interested, the lifting, Sukha brings a contented happinesss...a settling
3rd jhana: 
one lets go of rapture, sukha comes into play. Ekaggata is not a pointed mind, it is a plurality, just mind consciousness, a presence, a sense of balance, and integration, a deep sense of naturalness, gradual cessation
Sujato stresses presence, joy of being in the present, letting  go of the past and future,
it builds one's faith, builds on faith, that one can let go of things held onto, even this all inclusive rapture.

4th jhana;
equanimity settles, more profound than the sense of rapture, a summit of purification
Once Sariputta was asked 
Sir, how is Nibbana any good if there is nothing felt?'
The General of Dhamma replies
It is a marvel 'cause there is nothing to dwell on, nothing to feel
the meditator knows what he is talking about, it is not the non-feeling-ness of the coma, but that hi exaltation of jhana,
where Siddhartha found enlightenment.
At 47.43 of the video, this comment begins around 33.00, Sujato says in his typically mirthful manner, one just upgrades from a bicycle to a BMW, the bicycle in this simile? other practices of meditation???
I bow to Ven. Sujato for relentlessly voicing the word of Buddha, as told in the Pali canon. The material in the endless commentaries, and modern buddhism is swept aside.
Dhamma is presented as it emerged from the mouth of Buddha. How did the Buddha and his disciples practice? ...not later buddhists. The word vipassana hardly appears in the canon, only twice, Thanissaro writes, but jhana? Ven. W. Rahula made a point "
Why would Buddha refer to Jhana so many times in the Pali canon?
Samma Samadhi: this was the meditation prevalent in early or primitive Buddhism,
if we neglect it, we neglect it at our own peril.
PS Personally I find the details in the commentaries a bit much. This is not how Buddha of the Pali canon taught. 
I am sure the lead dancer of 'American in Paris' (Broadway show) would have given a lousy performance if he thought of every ballet move. While on stage, the good dancer forgets he is in a body, forgets everything he learnt, lets the mind dance.  Pure resolution! Likewise, in the good jhana meditator, body vanishes. Sense contact ceases to be. It is only then, that one can dance, the dance of awakening to the reality, a resolve to leave behind suffering.
With love :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

A complete understanding of a concept is difficult, unless several suttas, addressed to different disciples, are assembled from Middle length, Connected, and Numerical discourses of Buddha.
Conceiving tends to lessen. Even though we are not arahants, in these moments, profoundness of Dhamma sets in; not reading the sutta anymore, purely reflecting, in samadhic mode.
Speaking of objectless samadhi, which also translates to emptiness samadhi, or signlesss samadhi as in MN 121 and MN122,
or In SN 40.9 https://suttacentral.net/sn40.9/en/sujato
Moggalana confesses
While dwelling in "signless immersion", my mind gets into a jam, returns to signs
A SNAFU. 
Buddha admonishes his blessed pupil,
Settle the mind, kill the distraction,
reign in the mind
No baloney.

In MN 122 Buddha advices to the one, who attends to him
"One gets into difficulty when following signs, renounce all signs" Buddha to Ananda " I do not see even a single thing, with its decay and perishing, would not give rise to sorrow, lamentation and distress"
Don't follow signs, don't go chasing waterfalls!

Buddha speaks of meditation object? is there an object for right samadhi?
In AN 11.10 Buddha claims
only the fool engages in a sign. Wise samadhi has no object
The signless or objectless samadhi, fascinated even the gods, is praised, even God Indra is puzzled, in Sandha sutta.
Switching to MN 122, as you continue reading,  it presents a fascinating scenarion.
Folks think jhana is only a seated activity
"No way Jose" 
Excerpts from MN 122,  really a synopsis.
"While in jhana, mind inclines to walking, speaking, thinking, and one can do all these things without leaving jhana, according to MN 122. ‘While one is sitting/walking, bad, unskillful qualities of desire and aversion will not overwhelm one.’  In this way they are aware of the situation
  
  • While one is practicing such samadhi, if their mind inclines to lying down, they lie down, thinking:  ‘While I’m lying down, bad, unskillful qualities of desire and aversion will not overwhelm me.’  In this way they are aware of the situation
 
  • if their mind inclines to talking, they think,‘I will only engage in speech about self-effacement that helps open the heart and leads solely to disillusionment, peace, insight, awakening. That is, talk about fewness of wishes, contentment, seclusion, aloofness, arousing energy, and the knowledge and vision of freedom.’  In this way they are aware of the situation
 
  • If the mind inclines to thinking, they think: ‘But I will think the kind of thought that is noble and emancipating, and brings one who practices it to the complete ending of suffering. That is, thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness.’  In this way they are aware of the situation
 
Amazing! Ain't it? We must reflect on the above, let these sink in. Perhaps you might say
Only the Buddha can
but that is a cop out.
Iddhipada comes to mind. MahaKaccana was noted for this ability, by the Buddha.

With love  :candle:
PS "Chasing Waterfalls" is TLC's way of expressing how people chase intangible dreams with no thought of the consequences.

Pulsar
Posts: 732
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

🕊 We struggle to understand Nimitta. In the literature, It pops up in various contexts. For the meditator what counts is the soteriological context. So we return to Buddha and Paticca samuppada he proclaimed, under the tree of awakening.
Intension of any skillful effort, is to uproot dukkha...
Where and how does contact come into play? What is doable? 
It is hard to just cold turkey get rid of craving. It is an addiction, a samsaric habit.
Zooming in on contact,
the manageable link,
in Putramansa "Son's Flesh" Buddha inquires "feeding on the flesh of the only son?
 shocking, right?
who amongst us is a vegetarian in this sense?
Truth is, every unskillful contact is like this, as if we fed on the flesh of only son.
We are born to new unwholesome consciousness, in the breeding ground of mind unwatched
Wanting to be born again and again? thru renewed consciousness. World is filled with a deadly virus, yet into it, we want to be born.
Unwatched consciousness is on the prowl for next contact. Examples of Contact: news, food, luxury of human contact, the fur of the beloved pet, the dog and the cat. Did our favorite person post something on DW? another contact, right?
Last night I watched Sujato's first installment on Satipathana sutta. At the end of two hours he still had not got past the first few lines...It was filled with historical aspects of the sutta, I was intrigued as to how "Ekayana" was born, out of the brahman's mouth.
Will continue later....
With love :candle:

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mikenz66
Posts: 17580
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Jhana

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Pulsar,
Pulsar wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:15 am
Last night I watched Sujato's first installment on Satipathana sutta. At the end of two hours he still had not got past the first few lines...It was filled with historical aspects of the sutta, I was intrigued as to how "Ekayana" was born, out of the brahman's mouth.
When you mention talks it would be helpful to give links, in case people want to follow them up. They may well be earlier in the thread, but it can be time consuming to search for them.

:heart:
Mike

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