Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:40 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:20 pm
Wrong. The sutta I referenced refers to the 3 trainings. The next sutta that comes after that one defines the 3 trainings.
But this does not prove that in order to attain the first jhana, it is enough only to distance oneself from sensual desires and unwholesome mental states, only for the period of formal meditation.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:11 pm

"Where sensual pleasures cease, and those who have thoroughly ended sensual pleasures meditate, I say: ‘Clearly those venerables are desireless, extinguished, crossed over, and gone beyond in that respect.’ If someone should say, ‘I do not know or see where sensual pleasures cease’, they should be told: ‘Reverend, it’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. That’s where sensual pleasures cease.’ Clearly someone who is not devious or deceitful would approve and agree with that statement. They’d say ‘Good!’ and bowing down, they’d pay homage with joined palms". AN 9.33
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:51 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:40 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:20 pm
Wrong. The sutta I referenced refers to the 3 trainings. The next sutta that comes after that one defines the 3 trainings.
But this does not prove that in order to attain the first jhana, it is enough only to distance oneself from sensual desires and unwholesome mental states, only for the period of formal meditation.

No, but you didn't answer my question on celibacy.

Clearly lay people who are not celibate are able to attain once-return which requires jhanas. What else do you need to prove?

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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:52 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:11 pm
"Where sensual pleasures cease, and those who have thoroughly ended sensual pleasures meditate, I say: ‘Clearly those venerables are desireless, extinguished, crossed over, and gone beyond in that respect.’ If someone should say, ‘I do not know or see where sensual pleasures cease’, they should be told: ‘Reverend, it’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. That’s where sensual pleasures cease.’ Clearly someone who is not devious or deceitful would approve and agree with that statement. They’d say ‘Good!’ and bowing down, they’d pay homage with joined palms". AN 9.33
Someone who has crossed over is an Arahant, or at minimum a Non-returner. Yes, for the period of meditation you should not be hindered, no one is disputing that.

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:08 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:51 pm
Clearly lay people who are not celibate are able to attain once-return which requires jhanas. What else do you need to prove?
From the suttas it seems that the jhana are reached by those laypeople who are inclined to renounce sensual pleasures. And the formula which says that a person develops the factor of samadhi to some extent, in the suttas there is not only in relation to sakadagami, but also in relation to sotapanna. But neither for the attainment of the fruit of sotapanna, nor for the attainment of the fruit by the sakadagami, the attainment of jhana is not obligatory.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:10 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:52 pm
Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:11 pm
"Where sensual pleasures cease, and those who have thoroughly ended sensual pleasures meditate, I say: ‘Clearly those venerables are desireless, extinguished, crossed over, and gone beyond in that respect.’ If someone should say, ‘I do not know or see where sensual pleasures cease’, they should be told: ‘Reverend, it’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. That’s where sensual pleasures cease.’ Clearly someone who is not devious or deceitful would approve and agree with that statement. They’d say ‘Good!’ and bowing down, they’d pay homage with joined palms". AN 9.33
Someone who has crossed over is an Arahant, or at minimum a Non-returner.
It says only about the first jhana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:14 pm

one_awakening, thank you, :heart:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:33 pm

Sunnat wrote
They are attained by practice as a matter of course, not by seeking them. Seeking them with any craving is walking in the wrong direction. They come and pass away. When they come, just observe, don't become attached. Don't be attached in the first place.
The post was about rightly executed jhana, in fact OP mentioned MN 117 as the background
for the topic, it differentiates Right Samadhi from Wrong Samadhi. You misread the post, your statement reminds me of the jhana of the foolish cow, or the jhana of the unbroken colt.
In right concentration there is no attachment. In right jhana, the mood is one of renunciation.
You wrote
When they come, just observe
but the point of the Rupa jhanas is to gain insight into the truths of Buddha, Four Noble Truths. My understanding is that they are dynamic
states, not passive. What you say,
just observing
sounds like a practice emanating from a commentarial tradition.
:candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:40 pm

SarathW wrote
To qualify as Sama Samadhi, you have to practice the whole path in conjunction with right view, If you attain Jhana without right view it is not Samma Samadhi.
OP was talking about Jhana in relation to MN 117, the supra mundane path, where right view,
is present in a most remarkable sense, it is the one time, where even right speech demands right view,
so of course, this applies to said jhana also. Right speech here is more demanding than in the
ordinary 8-fold path. The question was about right speech vs right samadhi, which do you find easier
to do. :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:48 pm

Dear Budo, you wrote
If you're at a point in your life where you're chasing stimulation or stressed from work, then getting into jhana is nearly impossible
.
Of course I agree with you, even to Practice Satipatthana, or Anapanasati (MN 118) one requires an unmuddled mind. :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:16 pm

DooDoot You wrote
Jhana as a fantasy of of egoism
but my dearest DooDoot just to refresh your mind, the 4 jhanas, that is not how it is described in the canon. short excerpt from MN 85 Bodhirajakumara
aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind,
I entered on and abided in the first meditation which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful
But yet, Prince, the pleasurable feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind.
By allaying initial thought and discursive thought, with the mind subjectively tranquillised, I entered and abided in the second meditation
which is devoid of initial and discursive thought, is born of concentration, and is
rapturous and joyful
But yet, Prince, the pleasurable feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind. By the fading out of rapture I dwelt with equanimity, attentive and clearly conscious, and I experienced in my person that joy of which the ariyans say: ‘Joyful lives he who has equanimity and is mindful,’ and I entered on and abided in the third meditation. But yet, Prince, the pleasurable feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind.
By getting rid of joy and by getting rid of anguish, by the going down of former pleasures and sorrows, I entered into and abided in the fourth meditation which has neither anguish nor joy and
which is entirely purified by equanimity and mindfulness
But yet, Prince, the pleasurable feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind....

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:26 pm

Budo wrote
I recommend you read Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's book on Anapansati and attaining Jhana
I have not read the link you gave, but will do so later. I have read stuff written by other scholars on Buddhadasa,
that while he emphasized Anapanasati, he did not encourage Satipatthana, nor the 4 jhanas, in a detailed manner, although there are references to these.
So my understanding is that those who graduate from this particular school do not see the importance of jhana, Besides some think jhana is beyond one's league, simply because in the later Theravada commentaries,
it says so, a mistaken notion, however, if you go by the Pali canon.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:42 pm

Antaradhana wrote
To attain the first jhana, it is necessary to develop the mind at the level of brahmas, it is not achieved by concentration alone, the mind must be clear of obstructions: from malice, fear, thirst for sensual pleasures etc., and not for the time of formal meditation, but 24/7.

to develop the mind to level of Brahmas? What kind of brahmas are you to referring to? There were brahmas of the Vedic lineage, or the Buddha used the term for one who is free of corruptions DhP 386
Of course it is true one must be free of hindrances to enter first jhana, but it is also true that one's mind need to be free of hindrances to engage is Satpatthana, or Anapansathi.
You also wrote
24/7
Did you mean this? in sleep too?
You also wrote
One sensual or evil thought can close access to a jhana for a long time
There is plenty of evidence against this statement in the Pali canon, and for this we do not have
to go beyond the interactions of Buddha and Moggallana, while the latter was undergoing
training for jhana. Do you want a link to the Samyutta of
Moggallana? :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:20 pm

Dera Laurens, a special thank you, for your response. You paid attention to the OP's
question. Now I know someone else has the same difficulty as I do. The thing with
speech is, it is not always engaged in a mindful environment, so one is bound to trip. But after becoming
familiar with MN 117, I try to be far more careful with what I say, 'cause it must not have malice, must not be gossip, must not be devisive, must not be hurtful etc
As for jhana, I had the same difficulty as you do, i tried other ways of meditation. Other ways of calming the mind, but these do not lead to insight. Even to practice Satipatthana or Anapanasati, at a higher level, the 4 jhanas are essential.
One can practice these at more preliminary levels, which I am sure you are doing.
My biggest frustration was that suttas regarding jhanas are many times corrupted by Vedic intrusions, frighteningly so, so it is quite a journey to figure out what is essential.
If you are happy with what you are doing, that is fine. It helps to practice the 4 brahma viharas.
Above helped me a great deal.
There is a sutta that says there are many ways of entering insight. 'Man from Attakanagara'
Also some specific suttas can be used as meditation tools, I can think of several, one is Kajjaniya, and the one about the foam. What helped me most was the 'Son's flesh', that meditation lasted over
several weeks. Try it, filter it through your experience.
These are the practices I undertook, before I understood how to do the jhana in the simplest possible
manner. It is not like I sit for a long time, 10 min max, but I carry it with me. It is not the concentration so much as the bit of insight you gain each time. Once you are done with the sutta meditations, things should come more easily.
Pl let me know if you need the links to the suttas that helped me. You can pm me, for anything else.
Take care :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jhana

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:40 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:26 pm
Budo wrote
I recommend you read Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's book on Anapansati and attaining Jhana
I have not read the link you gave, but will do so later. I have read stuff written by other scholars on Buddhadasa,
that while he emphasized Anapanasati, he did not encourage Satipatthana, nor the 4 jhanas, in a detailed manner, although there are references to these.
So my understanding is that those who graduate from this particular school do not see the importance of jhana, Besides some think jhana is beyond one's league, simply because in the later Theravada commentaries,
it says so, a mistaken notion, however, if you go by the Pali canon.
Attitudes to jhana certainly vary. I used to attend a Thai Forest group, and was basically told that the jhanas were a distraction, and not to waste time on them. I thought this was an odd attitude, given the prominent position that jhanas have in the suttas.
Unfortunately some people just believe what their teacher says, and don't research these questions thoroughly.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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