Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:30 pm

https://suttacentral.net/an9.31/en/sujato
“Mendicants, there are these nine progressive cessations. “Navayime, bhikkhave, anupubbanirodhā.
What nine? Katame nava?

For someone who has attained the first absorption, sensual perceptions have ceased.
Paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa kāmasaññā niruddhā hoti;

For someone who has attained the second absorption, the placing of the mind and keeping it connected have ceased.
dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa vitakkavicārā niruddhā honti;

For someone who has attained the third absorption, rapture has ceased.
tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa pīti niruddhā hoti;

For someone who has attained the fourth absorption, breathing has ceased.
catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti;

For someone who has attained the dimension of infinite space, the perception of form has ceased.
ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa rūpasaññā niruddhā hoti;

For someone who has attained the dimension of infinite consciousness, the perception of the dimension of infinite space has ceased. viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa ākāsānañcāyatanasaññā niruddhā hoti;

For someone who has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of infinite consciousness has ceased. ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa viññāṇañcāyatanasaññā niruddhā hoti;

For someone who has attained the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased. nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa ākiñcaññāyatanasaññā niruddhā hoti;

For someone who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased. saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ samāpannassa saññā ca vedanā ca niruddhā honti.

These are the nine progressive cessations.” Ime kho, bhikkhave, nava anupubbanirodhā”ti.

4 jhanas and 4 ayatanas.

the first ayatana is when perception of form has ceased.

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... ations.htm
..
4) Sabbaso rūpasaññānaṁ samatikkamā, paṭighasaññānaṁ atthaṅgamā,
Having completely transcended perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of (sensory) impact,
..
nānattasaññānaṁ amanasikārā: ‘Ananto ākāso’ ti,
not attending to perceptions of variety, (understanding): ‘This is endless space’,
ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
he abides in the sphere of endless space. 05
Ayaṁ catuttho vimokkho.
This is the fourth liberation.
what is this perception of variety? maybe it is subject object distinction or separation..another reason to investiage what the pali words are to get more information.

as of this,
For someone who has attained the fourth absorption, breathing has ceased.
catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti;
what breathing? lungs stop working? or lungs automatic breathing stops? craving for breath stops, therefore no need to breath? so then are the rapture, placing the mind.., sensual perceptions real things in body what are taking care of energy, sustenance, cells growth etc?

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:48 pm

https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.1/en/caf_rhysdavids
What on that occasion is conception?

The ratiocination, the conception, which on that occasion is the disposition, the fixation, the focussing, the applicationof the mind, right intention—this is the conception that there then is.

What on that occasion is discursive thought?

The process, the sustained procedure (vicāro), the progress and access [of the mind] which on that occasion is the [continuous] adjusting and focussing of thought—this is the discursive thought that there then is.
i hope it is the correct copy paste,
Katamo tasmiṃ samaye vitakko hoti? Yo tasmiṃ samaye takko vitakko saṅkappo appanā byappanā cetaso abhiniropanā sammāsaṅkappo—ayaṃ tasmiṃ samaye vitakko hoti.

Katamo tasmiṃ samaye vicāro hoti? Yo tasmiṃ samaye cāro vicāro anuvicāro upavicāro cittassa anusandhānatā anupekkhanatā—ayaṃ tasmiṃ samaye vicāro hoti.
see what vicara is? Continuous adjusting and focusing, i guess its similar to the process of putting your shoes on.
whereas vitakka is conception, ratiocination.

what for it is necessary? once you get the shoe on the vitakkavicara is not needed anymore. the jhana is going towards better and better, not less and less. Rupa realms require craving to survive to live, whilst in ayatanas there isn't needed craving.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:07 pm

Dear auto, I will assume, that something in your brain makes you refuse to accept that
Buddha was awakened by resorting to 4 rupa jhanas and those only
and in this process imperturbability is what prevails in the final jhana. Imperturbable means, nothing impacts the meditator as if the mind was pulled out of the body, like a sword pulled out of its cover DN 2 excerpt
Mind-Made body
With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard
and that phase in 4th rupa jhana may be called formless, or immaterial
It is exactly at this point that the necessary buddhist work is accomplished, I am skipping knowledge of past lives, and directing it to beings passing away and rearising as happened in the first watch and 2nd watch of the night, since MN 27 says the primary factor is awakening to the 4 noble truths and destruction of taints.
Pl read MN 27
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
So what is essential is what happened in the 3rd watch of the night, directing that pliable softened mind to knowledge of destruction of corruptions, realizing "O what suffering this life is"; "what makes one suffer?" this delighting in birth etc is a curse.
"How to end it?" is there a state without suffering? Bliss
"How to get there?" the diligent practice of the path:
Bingo, a quantum leap!
and that is the path moment. The real buddhist event. earlier events were mere preparation for this moment of revelation.
Now when he knows and sees thus, his mind is freed from the corruption of sensual desire, (kamasava) from the taint of being (bhavasa) and the taint of ignorance (avijjasava)
that is when the meditator hits the jackpot
He knows birth is destroyed, the holy life has been led, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming and going.
Dear Auto this is all we need, as followers of the Buddhist truth. A few suttas concisely explain this for instance MN 4 Fear and Dread sutta, DN 2, MN 27, MN 36, MN 125. Understanding MN 43 and 44 is essential for understanding the Rupa Jhanas.
If one understands this, why mess with stages 5,6, 7 8? For extra credit???
But since you appear to be influenced by Brahmanical influences in the Pali canon, and since you appear to be smart I shall engage with you a bit
How do you use the word Ayatana? To me it means sense bases, you appear to call stages 5-8 Ayatanas, but I ignore those.
You wrote
For someone who has attained the fourth absorption, breathing has ceased.
catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti;
and this too
what breathing? lungs stop working? or lungs automatic breathing stops? craving for breath stops, therefore no need to breath? so then are the rapture, placing the mind.., sensual perceptions real things in body what are taking care of energy, sustenance, cells growth etc?
To me that is baloney. I am a scientist also, I cannot imagine how the brain cells, can survive when oxygen is cut off, plus where is the energy for heart to beat? blood to circulate? Cells have stopped making ATP. What is the energy currency in the body when oxygen is cut off? Can Auto explain in scientific terms?
If only rapture can do such wonders in the ordinary earthly human being!
What happens in the super natural states??? How did Moggallana fly to Brahma and deva worlds? How did Anuruddha chat with devas? these do not concern me. I am still struggling on earth, trying to wipe my corruptions, in fractional moments of 4th jhana, the imperturbable state,
dear Auto. :heart:

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:15 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:07 pm
To me that is baloney.
In the fourth jhana, breathing completely stops. Yogi Haridas in the 19th century demonstrated this. He entered samadhi (fourth jhana or in formless spheres), European doctors noted a stop in breathing and heart, his students sealed all his bodily openings with wax, after which he was placed in a wooden box and buried in the ground for 40 days. The land was sown with grain, and Maharaja put round the clock security to prevent fraud. After 40 days, the box was dug up, and the yogi came to his senses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadhu_Haridas

P.S. May be do you not believe in the impossibility of damaging the body in nirodha samapatti? There is a sutta where the peasants saw a monk located in nirodha samapatti. They thought that he had died, and having laid a pyre around him, set it on fire and left. When the monk left Nirodha-samapatti, he only saw that the edges of his robes were burnt.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:44 pm

Antaradhana your note ending with
After 40 days, the box was dug up, and the yogi came to his senses
was that buddhist Dhyana or Vedic Dhyana? Pretty impressive. Has this experiment been repeated? In matters of science replication is essential, in order to be accepted.
So for me in order to believe this, they will have to repeat it in several places in the world, for instance in Russia, Burma, Mexico or Sri Lanka. Has the above been replicated, even within India?
You also wrote
There is a sutta where the peasants saw a monk located in nirodha samapatti. They thought that he had died, and having laid a pyre around him, set it on fire and left. When the monk left Nirodha-samapatti, he only saw that the edges of his robes were burnt
Can you name the sutta please? Is it in the Middle length Discourses?
This kind of stuff is in the commentaries, i ignore those. :candle:

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:51 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:44 pm
was that buddhist Dhyana or Vedic Dhyana?
Samans and yogi reach the same jhanas and formless realms as buddhist practices. The difference is only in the views and in the objects to which attention is directed in these states (among buddhists it is tilakhana). Example from the suttas: Alara Kalama, Uddaka Ramaputta and the Kassapa brothers with 1,000 students.
In matters of science replication is essential, in order to be accepted.
The science? Do you also want to confirm kamma scientifically? ;)
Can you name the sutta please?
MN 50
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:20 am

You wrote
Samans and yogi reach the same jhanas and formless realms as buddhist practices. The difference is only in the views and in the objects to which attention is directed in these states (among buddhists it is tilakhana).
I do not subscribe to this view. For me these are mere mental proliferations, I have no interest in brahmanical methods.
My only interest is in anything that leads to attenuation of suffering. Engaging with you is not gonna do that for me. The subject of the thread is concerned with 4 rupa jhanas that constitute right concentration. Right concentration is part of the eightfold path. I have absolutely no interest in what the brahmins consider as right concentration.
I've met folks who are very nice and are interested in Buddhism, but to them Buddha is only an Avatar of Vishnu.
You wrote
Example from the suttas: Alara Kalama, Uddaka Ramaputta and the Kassapa brothers with 1,000 students
Suttas quote these meditators, true, but they were all pre buddhist, according to the suttas I read. Kassapa brothers eventually became disciples of Buddha.
You wrote
Do you also want to confirm kamma scientifically? ;)
O God no, there are certain things, that I do not wish Antaradhana to prove to me.
As for MN 50, I have no wish to engage with that right now. It is very much your kind of sutta. So enjoy. I have set aside some suttas, like MN 50, for study, in case the ones I think are important, do not get me
to the end of suffering :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:55 am

Pulsar wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:20 am
You wrote
Samans and yogi reach the same jhanas and formless realms as buddhist practices. The difference is only in the views and in the objects to which attention is directed in these states (among buddhists it is tilakhana).
I do not subscribe to this view. For me these are mere mental proliferations, I have no interest in brahmanical methods.
My only interest is in anything that leads to attenuation of suffering. Engaging with you is not gonna do that for me. The subject of the thread is concerned with 4 rupa jhanas that constitute right concentration. Right concentration is part of the eightfold path. I have absolutely no interest in what the brahmins consider as right concentration.
I've met folks who are very nice and are interested in Buddhism, but to them Buddha is only an Avatar of Vishnu.
If you do not like something, then this is not enough reason to deny what was said in suttas.
You wrote
Example from the suttas: Alara Kalama, Uddaka Ramaputta and the Kassapa brothers with 1,000 students
Suttas quote these meditators, true, but they were all pre buddhist, according to the suttas I read. Kassapa brothers eventually became disciples of Buddha.
They reached jhanas and formless realms, before meeting with Buddha.

You wrote
Do you also want to confirm kamma scientifically? ;)
O God no, there are certain things, that I do not wish Antaradhana to prove to me.
As for MN 50, I have no wish to engage with that right now. It is very much your kind of sutta. So enjoy. I have set aside some suttas, like MN 50, for study, in case the ones I think are important, do not get me
to the end of suffering :candle:
OK
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:39 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:07 pm
Pl read MN 27
mn 27
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Then, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain.
neither pleasure nor pain(it would imply to some neutral feeling). there could be a different translation,

https://suttacentral.net/mn27/en/sujato
Furthermore, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.
Puna caparaṃ, brāhmaṇa, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā, pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā, adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
according to this the adukkhamasukhaṃ means there is no pain and no pleasure.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.31/en/sujato
For someone who has attained the fourth absorption, breathing has ceased.
catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti;
there is energy pool in belly, lungs are used to cultivate the energy into the belly, at the time when the breathing is stopped, the energy will start rise upwards in a slow pace to a next pool above.
anyway there is something what allows you to freed from the senses. the upekkha is a substance what is developed maybe..it is pliant, malleable

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"There remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable, & luminous. Just as if a skilled goldsmith or goldsmith's apprentice were to prepare a furnace, heat up a crucible, and, taking gold with a pair of tongs, place it in the crucible: He would blow on it time & again, sprinkle water on it time & again, examine it time & again, so that the gold would become refined, well-refined, thoroughly refined,....
it is layman's upekkha when it doesn't go beyond sense organ objects.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"And what are the six kinds of household equanimity? The equanimity that arises when a foolish, deluded person — a run-of-the-mill, untaught person who has not conquered his limitations or the results of action [2] & who is blind to danger [3] — sees a form with the eye. Such equanimity does not go beyond the form, which is why it is called household equanimity. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)
the breath doesn't stop indefinite, but there should be more and more energy in belly what rise during breath is stopped and accordingly you need breath less and less times or less and less are needed to breath to convert energy into belly, your breath is more efficient in that respect.

Nevertheless jhana is more than you make it to be as just some bliss what could aswell be laylife bliss.

Pulsar wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:07 pm
why mess with stages 5,6, 7 8?
the renunciation equanimity goes beyond rupa,
"And what are the six kinds of renunciation equanimity? The equanimity that arises when — experiencing the inconstancy of those very forms, their change, fading, & cessation — one sees with right discernment as it actually is that all forms, past or present, are inconstant, stressful, subject to change: This equanimity goes beyond form, which is why it is called renunciation equanimity. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)
Pulsar wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:07 pm
To me that is baloney. I am a scientist also, I cannot imagine how the brain cells, can survive when oxygen is cut off, plus where is the energy for heart to beat? blood to circulate? Cells have stopped making ATP. What is the energy currency in the body when oxygen is cut off? Can Auto explain in scientific terms?
have you heard about internal alchemy? it makes sense, if you can start doing it and see some results. The Sutta hasn't mentioned duration, so the breath stopping is not long for the underdeveloped and due to management the duration might not go longer than the ordinary persons but the other factors can come into play and you use these for further progress till eventually you turn to something else than a biological body, i don't know but i won't be satisfied with household bliss from being able to escape from unpleasant things for a while and enjoy wind breeze, that's not for me, i look better freedom and one is where i breath when i need energy and i know it what for it is exactly and how much etc.


Other thing more perhaps you need be sealed out from environment so that the environment wouldn't feed you dirt and you don't need purify from it all the time then you can reach some purity where impossible comes possible.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:56 pm

Antaradhana regarding your earlier claim
yogi in a box who survived for 40 days

I was joking about the experiment, but here is the thing not even the unawakened Bodhisatta could do that. At one point in his ascetic practice, he was determined for insight, that he tried non-breathing trance. That almost killed him, so he gave up.
then he decided to starve, when the devas approached him and said "we will not let you die"
an excerpt from MN 36. The Longer Discourse to Saccaka.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I thought: 'Suppose I were to practice going altogether without food.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Dear sir, please don't practice going altogether without food. If you go altogether without food, we'll infuse divine nourishment in through your pores, and you will survive on that.' I thought, 'If I were to claim to be completely fasting while these devas are infusing divine nourishment in through my pores, I would be lying.' So I dismissed them, saying, 'Enough'
So he resorted to small amounts of food.
My point is to live for 40 days without breathing is impossible, and that on top of no food, as this yogi claims?
Buddha did not want the devas to infuse him with divine nourishment and claim to the world, that he was completely fasting.
So there, leaving aside the science. :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:19 pm

Antaradhana wrote
If you do not like something, then this is not enough reason to deny what was said in suttas
According to suttas they practiced non-buddhist jhanas. I do not deny this, but these did not enable them the knowledge of 4 Noble Truths, what Buddha is credited with.
You wrote also
Alara Kalama, Uddaka Ramaputta and the Kassapa brothers with 1,000 students
reached jhanas and formless realms, before meeting with Buddha
I never denied this. Meditation was a common practice in India before Siddhartha was born.
What you fail to understand
is the distinction between prebuddhist meditators' achievements and Buddha's achievement
Let me explain, using a simple metaphor,
Before Buddha meditators had various methods of travel, like to go 50-100-1000 miles in a fairly short time, but bound to earth, Buddha was familiar with these methods, but did those
really help Buddha to build a rocket ship that propelled beings to outer space
, something that the jain and other teachers could not do

Only a metaphor, what Buddha accomplished was far more magnificent.
Maybe I will try to understand you, dear Antaradhana.
Pl tell me,
what did the Vedic meditators accomplish? Did they attain nibbana on their own?
What is your definition of Nibbana?
What is your
definition of an Arahant? Does he have a consciousness or not?
Regards :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:29 pm

Dear Auto before I attempt to reply you, I must understand whether we are on the same page.
Do you have a firm belief that there is an atman/self in the things we believe to be self/atman.
You appear to be. If so the things I say won't make any sense to you, because my understanding is that there
is no self/atman in the things we believe to be self/atman.

Earlier it appeared to me that you thought,
a self exists because a body is here with all the chakras
that you describe
True enuf there is a body. My question is "is it permanent?"
The notion regarding chakras and energy channels, is it not due to your imagination?
What happens to the chakras if a believer gets run over by a train?
Not even the relatives will want that body, they who loved you so well, will
toss it, bury it or burn it?
So much for the atman/self (body with chakras, and energy channels) that you recognize as your self.
PS just think about it, meditate on it, and tell me what you came up with? You appear to be very
sincere, and very smart. :heart:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:00 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:56 pm
Antaradhana regarding your earlier claim
yogi in a box who survived for 40 days

I was joking about the experiment, but here is the thing not even the unawakened Bodhisatta could do that. At one point in his ascetic practice, he was determined for insight, that he tried non-breathing trance. That almost killed him, so he gave up.
The fourth jhana and formless spheres are not the same as breath holding (kumbhaka).

P.S. ~ 20 years ago, I watched on TV, where a yogi (in my opinion an Australian), who studied yoga in India, stopped his heart and breathing while under water for an hour in the lotus position.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:18 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:19 pm
According to suttas they practiced non-buddhist jhanas. I do not deny this, but these did not enable them the knowledge of 4 Noble Truths, what Buddha is credited with.
Jhanas and formless realms are not buddhist or non-buddhist achievements.These are the same states that any being who practices renouncing the sensory and samadhi attains. The differences between buddhists and samans are not in the form of jhana, but in the views and the correct direction of attention (on tilakhana).

The 1000 Kassapa disciples instantly became Arahants when they heard only one short sermon from the Buddha (Fiery sermon), as did Bahia, who was a great ascetic. This happened because all the other components of the path, including virtue, renunciation of the sensual and jhana, they had already developed these things before meeting with the Buddha, they lacked only an understanding of anatta.
What is your definition of Nibbana?
What is your definition of an Arahant? Does he have a consciousness or not?
This is beyond the scope of the topic.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:24 am

antaradhana wrote
The 1000 Kassapa disciples instantly became Arahants when they heard only one short sermon from the Buddha (Fiery sermon), as did Bahia, who was a great ascetic
True, Yasa the householder who met Buddha, heard a short sermon, instantly became an Arahant too.
He did not appear to have meditated before, he was married and spent the night before with
several musicians.
Bahia becoming an Aarhant does not mean the 4 buddhist jhanas are not different from Vedic jhanas, I asked you about the consciousness and nibbana because they are very much related to the jhana practice, since you think
they are unrelated, what you practice cannot be buddhist jhana :candle:

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